Stride Bruising

[Bridewell]

Hair pulling might make her scream, pulling a scarf tight might gag any vocal response.
.

As in "screamed three times but not very loud" perhaps?

[GregBaron]

Bangers and Mash...

But no clear signs of strangulation.

Hi Jon, I think there would be signs of a struggle if she wasn’t throttled…meaning Polly...I think Lynn's suggestion for Stride a viable one..

Yes, indeed. But not sure how Liz could be thrown down yet the mud and water on left side only.

I’ve got a brilliant idea Lynn, she was thrown on her left side..!

(Yet I am called "idiot" for remarking the difference.)

On Casebook? Surely not Lynn…

I'm not just talking inter-femoral, that is safe sex, I mean conventional intercourse from the rear, and as I mentioned elsewhere, anal sex was also an option.

Heaven forbid…I thought they banged up against fences….If copulating as you suggest, he’d be banging her head against the wall……………rather unpleasant


Greg

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hello DLDW. thanks.

"Schwartz provides a quite sound explanation for the bruising."

Yes, indeed. But not sure how Liz could be thrown down yet the mud and water on left side only.

Cheers.
LC

His statement said that BSM threw her on the pavement. That could account for the lack of mud. I'm personally becoming more skeptical of Schwartz. But I'm not willing to disregard him yet. More data is needed. He provides a reasonable enough explanation. It's just not quite enough to take it as gospel. Your point being one of many to consider.

[lynn cates]

I'll bite.

Hello Jon. Biting the tongue could be one such sign.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

signs and wonders

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

The "improved kill" model? Hopefully, not trial and error.

Try here for the mock killing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95rqNxxbiM

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thrown down

Hello DLDW. thanks.

"Schwartz provides a quite sound explanation for the bruising."

Yes, indeed. But not sure how Liz could be thrown down yet the mud and water on left side only.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

We must remember that choking is not strangulation, and that strangulation or choking do cut off the breath, but neither do not necessarily induce an unconscious state. Only if the pressure is continued to induce such a state.

Annie was choked....so was Liz. But my sense is that Annie was choked to unconsciousness, whereas Liz Strides scarf was grabbed and twisted in her attack and she may have been cut while falling. There may have been little time to get Liz to pass out before her cut...and her killer may have had no desire to make that happen anyway.

Cheers

[curious4]

Signs

Hello Jon,

You're welcome.

Cheers,
C4

[Jon Guy]

Thanks C4, I can see it now.

A much better indicator of strangulation than the slightly lacerated tongue

Thanks for that.

[curious4]

Daily News

Hello Jon,

Sorry, no good at pasting, but the quote is from: Press reports, Daily News, 3rd Sept. 1888, under the heading "The Inquest" and the paragraph starts with "Dr Llewellyn, 152 Whitechapel St.

Hope this will help.

Cheers,
C4

[Jon Guy]

Hello C4

Very lazy of me not to read the inquest report myself! Done now and it states that there was a bruise on the left side of the throat and an abrasion on the right side.

I can`t see the bit about bruises on and abrasions on the throat?
Are you able to copy and paste those details off the inquest report as the report I`m looking at doesn`t have those details.

[curious4]

Strangulation

Hello Jon,

Very lazy of me not to read the inquest report myself! Done now and it states that there was a bruise on the left side of the throat and an abrasion on the right side. This points to (to me anyway) that she was gripped by the throat and throttled. The bruises on each side of the face point towards him/her gripping the chin before cutting the throat - gripping hard perhaps because he/she was getting more exited by then. I can't see anything that points to him holding his hand over her mouth.

I think bleeding to death would leave her with a pale face, not a discoloured one. Blood would pool in the face after death perhaps, but only if she was lying on her face, which she wasn't.

Over to you!

Best wishes,
C4

[Jon Guy]

Hi C4

I appreciate the weight of a Sugden quote!!

But, I don`t know about little spillage of blood as Nichols clothing was sodden as it had pooled by her neck and run under her body into the back of her coat.

But no clear signs of strangulation.

She could have bitten he tongue when she was having her throat cut, as we know from the finger marks that a hand was held over her mouth.

Her face was discoloured because of bruising and the fact that she had lost most of her blood.

[curious4]

Strangulation

Hello Jon,

Quoting from The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, Philip Sugden, "The fact that Polly's throat was severed when she was lying down and with so little spillage of blood, together with the apparent abscence of any scream, points to prior strangulation." and "We know from police reports that Polly's face was discoloured and her tongue slightly lacerated".

Also, the doctor mentions a small bruise on the left side of her throat and an abrasion on the right. There was no sign of a struggle.

Best wishes,
C4

[Jon Guy]

What are the signs of strangulation with Nichols?

I know she had bitten her tongue but she`d had her throat cut with whilst a hand was held over her mouth, but what are the signs of strangulation in this case?