Arbeter Fraint's Take

[mariab]

Stride on the ice

Fish, as you know, I disagree about Johnston as we don't know exactly how long after Stride's death he turned up. Could have been only 20'min..

That, Maria, would not affect the clotting of the blood. It clots in darkness too!

Come on Fish, the darkness (also mentioned by Harry) and the inexperience part referred to Johnston's ability of remaining calm/seeing his way around while examining Stride's neck THEN her wrist.

Quote mariab:"Nobody applied pressure on Stride's bleeding neck."

The pressure part referred to timing of the clotting. If it takes about 15'min. for my bleeding fingers to get clotted when applying pressure with a paper towel during a kitchen accident and over 30'min. for the blood to stop running in liquid form from my fingers when figure skating, it stands to reason that Stride's much more extensive neck injury might have required longer than that to start clotting, even if she got emptied of all her blood from her jugular. Of course it might be of significance for timing blood clotting if one has a pulse or not, is inside vs. outside in the cold, etc..
Plus, even partly clotted blood would get transferred from her neck to her palm.

And we totally highjacked the thread.

[lynn cates]

member

Hello Velma. That's an interesting angle. Most of the Anarchists at Berner st were peaceable--unlike the lads at the Club Autonomie. (Those were the "Anarchists of the deed.")

If a club member had done for Liz, I would be scratching my head for a motive. A visitor to the club? That brings up many questions.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

A typically good observation from curious. Gilyarovsky seems to know everything that Isaac Kozebrodski and 'Gilleman' knew, which is why I think they're all the same. The reason he sticks out in the AF piece is because he's mentioned a lot. This tells me that he (and not Diemshitz) was a primary source for the writer of the article, hence the mistakes regarding grapes and a box of candies being in Stride's hand. Nobody but he and Diemshitz claim to have seen this...and, in fact, Diemshitz wasn't in the yard very long at all. By the time the police arrived he was found hiding something in the area of the stage. It wasn't discovered what he was hiding, but the police seem to have suspected it to have been knives, and they were likely correct.

Yours truly,


Tom Wescott

Thank you, Tom, for not thinking this is nonsense.

So, what is going on with this?

1. Gilyarovsky found the body? Probably not, the horse shying story seems almost universal, doesn't it?

2. Gilyarovsky created the body? And was just waiting for it to be discovered? He did not need to go into the yard to see it, he already knew about the blood, but perhaps needed to talk (seems foolish) and the minute someone mentioned a body in the yard, he ran to tell others -- not that a body had been found, but that a murdered woman with blood had been found.

3. The writer sort of telescoped the information around. After Diemshitz ran into the club, Gilyarovsky accompanied Diemshitz to the yard, THEN ran to tell others?

Did the writer get things out of order? Or did Gilyarovsky know too early and why?

[lynn cates]

translation

Hello Maria. You have some interesting ideas about translation of the Yiddish paper.

IF SY had wished to translate the AF, THEN they would need a translator, someone to collect the paper, read it, then translate it. That person must, of course, speak Yiddish.

Why is that buzzer going off inside my head?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

I just wanted a subtitle to be fashionable..

The way The Echo/The Scotsman puts it, Schwartz was chasing Pipeman. This could be 1) a mix up by the journalist, 2) William Wess pressured by The Echo and trying to muddle up the waters, pretending he doesn't recall a thing, 3) William Wess narrating propaganda about the heroics of some anarchist. (Though "technically" the chaser was not an official member of the IWEC.)


Well, the accuracy of newspaper reports, Debs. Unless the other newspapers briefly discussing "a domestic quarrell" mention multiple witnesses?

The Echo doesn't name names, it says the murderer was chased away. So is 'a mix up by a journalist' not the same as press innacuracy, Maria?
Could this story be from a different source? Did others witness the 'domestic' or Schwartz running away but not come forward? Was there gossip about it at the club?

[lynn cates]

Gilyarovsky

Hello Tom. If Gilyarovsky were Kozebrodski, it could well explain some errors in the report. (Kozebrodski was, as you know, a mere lad. In fact, his description of Liz in situ actually entails that she was outside the gates when killed--an obvious mistake.)

Diemshitz hiding knives? New one on me. Kitchen knives, perhaps, just so that the police would not get a wrong idea?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

up in smoke

Hello Maria. Regarding bombs: that sounds more like the Club Autonomie. They were largely adherents of the Johann Most faction. They were pleased to perpetrate violence. The Berner lads were part of the peaceable faction at this time.

Cigars? Don't forget that--at some point--Wess obtained a license to vend cigars. Also, what was in Leon Goldstein's shiny black bag?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

The pressure part referred to timing of the clotting. If it takes about 15'min. for my bleeding fingers to get clotted when applying pressure with a paper towel during a kitchen accident and over 30'min. for the blood to stop running in liquid form from my fingers when figure skating, it stands to reason that Stride's much more extensive neck injury might have required longer than that to start clotting, even if she got emptied of all her blood from her jugular. Of course it might be of significance for timing blood clotting if one has a pulse or not, is inside vs. outside in the cold, etc..
Plus, even partly clotted blood would get transferred from her neck to her palm.

And we totally highjacked the thread.

Hi, Maria,

I am far from an expert here, but from my own observation wonder if your own blood might not clot more slowly depending upon what you eat.

And therefore the timing would be different on each individual.

I have gone to give blood and been able to because I was hydrated and had not been eating salads and lots of vegetables. Other times, when on a very natural diet, the technicians could not get enough blood, even after jabbing both arms.

There is something in certain foods that affects the blood flow. An uncle loved salads, but became ill and was told to change his diet in order for his blood to be thin enough for treatment.

Again, I know nothing medically. Just that blood changes thicknesses which I am inclined to think would change the clotting time.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Debs.

"The Star of 1st October says-
"The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.
Those?"

Perhaps they were speaking editorially? Of course, IF there were multiple witnesses, the story would be much more viable.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"I disagree about Johnston as we don't know exactly how long after Stride's death he turned up. Could have been only 20'min.. "

It matters not, if he used the kind of firm grip doctors use when palpating for the pulse. Please, Maria, before you take this any further, do the test I mentioned! Dip your finger in blood and press it gently against the back of your hand.
History is crammed with deeds where killers with fresh blood on their hands set of fingerprints on GLASS and similar hard surfaces. With WET blood, Maria!

"Come on Fish, the darkness and the inexperience part referred to Johnston's ability of remaining calm/seeing his way around while examining Stride's neck THEN her wrist."

I know that, Maria - but blood STILL clots in darkness ...

"even partly clotted blood would get transferred from her neck to her palm"

And guess what would get transferred with it? Yup - fingerprints.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

germane--or French?

Hello Maria. What highjacking? Your and Christer's discussion is quite germane.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Maria. You have some interesting ideas about translation of the Yiddish paper.

Translation? I was still totally and dreamingly into ice skating.

IF SY had wished to translate the AF, THEN they would need a translator, someone to collect the paper, read it, then translate it. That person must, of course, speak Yiddish.

Yep, and as we know, it's super easy to understand spoken Yiddish vs. decifering it. But I assume that the London police would have easily located a Yiddish reading translator. Don't you wish you were able to resuscitate one of those, Lynn? ;-)

Why is that buzzer going off inside my head?

Mine too, but I'm still a bit tipsy from us having finished a bottle of white wine followed by a bottle of rosé earlier on, lol. Cuz I only have about 3 days left here and an interest to empty the fridge.

So is 'a mix up by a journalist' not the same as press innacuracy, Maria? {...} Did others witness the 'domestic' or Schwartz running away but not come forward? Was there gossip about it at the club?

Absolutely, and all of these are viable possibilities. Provided that Schwartz' story is true, which at this point I'm at 60% suspecting that it might not have been.

To Curious:
Definitely a link between diet and blood clotting, as well as general health issues and hormonal inbalances, such as taking the pill (which I assume that Stride didn't take, apologies for the silly pun). Hmm. I was in Paris at the time so it's safe to say I was eating mostly duck, fish, and desserts and not much green stuff, though definitely fruit.

[mariab]

Hello Maria. What highjacking? Your and Christer's discussion is quite germane.

Then you might excuse our French.

History is crammed with deeds where killers with fresh blood on their hands set of fingerprints on GLASS and similar hard surfaces. With WET blood, Maria!
"even partly clotted blood would get transferred from her neck to her palm"
And guess what would get transferred with it? Yup - fingerprints.

Fish, but fingerprinting was NOT yet introduced in Victorian police investigating! In fact, there's a chap who wrote a letter to a newspaper suggesting fingerprinting during the autumn of terror.

[lynn cates]

17?

Hello Velma, Tom. Very interesting, and I'll have to think a bit here.

Of course, if I recall properly, Kozebrodsky was about 17 at the time?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. That's an interesting angle. Most of the Anarchists at Berner st were peaceable--unlike the lads at the Club Autonomie. (Those were the "Anarchists of the deed.")

If a club member had done for Liz, I would be scratching my head for a motive. A visitor to the club? That brings up many questions.

Cheers.
LC

Good Morning, Lynn,
I agree with you. That possibility does raise many, many questions.

But someone with the knowledge and skills to check up on Gilyarovsky might produce something of interest.

I think it is more likely the writer got things out of sequence, but since the murderer of Stride is unknown . . . She appeared to be dressing up for something or someone and hanging around outside waiting . . . we have all speculated she was waiting for someone . . .

Then, suddenly, we are presented with a club member who appears to know she was dead and that there was blood present before anyone had actually had a decent look at the body.

To me, it appears to raise some interesting possibilities.

Besides, that is what always solves mysteries in books and on TV -- someone knowing something he has no reason to know.

(Sorry, Smily popped up in wrong place)