Arbeter Fraint's Take

[Tom_Wescott]

Simon and the bomb excert

Simon,

First, thanks for the posting the Echo excerpt. Regarding the excerpt you posted on bombs in Berner Street...Berner Street did indeed become a hotbed of violent anarchists, and bombs were in fact held in secret at the club, but all this occurred well after 1888. I don't believe that the club was being spied on during the night of the murder, or at least there's nothing in the evidence to make me think it was. But I DO know that following the murder, and until at least some point in December, undercover cops were to be found haunting Berner Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Gilyarovsky

what unsettles me is that Gilyarovsky seems to have known too much too soon.

does it seem like that to anyone else?

A typically good observation from curious. Gilyarovsky seems to know everything that Isaac Kozebrodski and 'Gilleman' knew, which is why I think they're all the same. The reason he sticks out in the AF piece is because he's mentioned a lot. This tells me that he (and not Diemshitz) was a primary source for the writer of the article, hence the mistakes regarding grapes and a box of candies being in Stride's hand. Nobody but he and Diemshitz claim to have seen this...and, in fact, Diemshitz wasn't in the yard very long at all. By the time the police arrived he was found hiding something in the area of the stage. It wasn't discovered what he was hiding, but the police seem to have suspected it to have been knives, and they were likely correct.

Yours truly,


Tom Wescott

[mariab]

you da bomb

Re. bombs, I've found several French secret police reports mentioning the London anarchists constructing bombs, but from 1902 on. There are anarchists' pamphlets advertizing chemistry lessons (wink wink) for the public at different London Clubs. I might have posted one of these (with a translation) in the Kaufman thread, but too lazy to look it up now. (If anyone wants to look at it, try typing in "bomb" in the "search this thread" feature in the Kaufman thread.)

Of course Gyliarovski is Kozebrodski. 2 similar names, 2 identical reports about their activities. And it makes sense that Diemshitz as the steward and janitor of the place might have been ordered to hide knives/cigars/other stuff prior to the police raid.

[Debra A]

I'm going to try to ignore the more non-sensical posts on this thread, but there have been many good comments and questions I'd like to take a stab at.

Debs,

The Echo report, which was an interview with William Wess, offers a garbled version of the Schwartz story, and there can be little doubt that the Schwartz episode is the inspiration for the story. I believe the characters were twisted by the reporter, but it's possible it was Wess. Considering that the club had only about 15 'members' but many times that in attendees, Wess would have been telling the truth, perhaps with a wink, when he said that the man (Schwartz) was not a member of his club. But since Wess, an integral member of the club, was aware of the Schwartz incident prior to publication of this Arbeter Fraint edition, it's natural that Lynn would be looking for Schwartz in the journal, as was I. Only unlike Lynn, I'm not surprised to find no mention of him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks for the explanation, Tom.

I thought in the article the club secretary (Wess) said that the man who gave chase was not a member of the club (although he seemed to have known his name but now forgotten it) and not the man being chased-which was Schwartz?

[Debra A]

Although only Schwartz appears to have given a witness statement about the incident outside the club, could it have been witnessed by more than one person?
The Star of 1st october says-
"The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.
Those?

[Fisherman]

Jon:

"When blood clots it just goes thick, so the blood stains on the 'back' & 'wrist' of Strides right hand was just that, smears of blood. No blood noted in the palm of her hand, presumably where the grapes would have been seen.
So, clotted blood does not equal grapes, there was no blood in her hand."

Well, Jon, it was said by Phillips at the inquest that "There were small oblong clots on the back of the hand." Thus the "clots" reference. And I think that the observation that lay behind the grape thing, was made by either Diemschitz or Kozebrodsky or the two of them in flickering light from a police lamp, both men being understandably upset at the time. They probably just fleetingly saw the dark oblong shapes against the white skin of Stride´s hand, and made the wrong guess. This is further supported by Phillips, who at the inquest said "Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death" and by Blackwell, who was in place earlier and who also stated that no grapes were present at the scene.

Being the insistent and bulldoggish character that I am, I would also like to point out that IF the oblong blood marks were thickish, thus giving the impression of clots, then if anybody had put them there by means of transferring them by the fingertips, then they must have found their way to Strides hand when the blood was still very, very fresh, plus the transfer as such must have been made by a very tentative touch. Otherwise there would have been clear fingerprint imprints in them. This is one of the reasons why I totally dismiss the idea that Johnston put them there - when he arrived at the scene, the blood was clotted or clotting, as stated by himself. And clotting blood WILL give away fingerprints!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

But Fish, I thought your personal opinion was that it was Stride's secret lover who contaminated the scene. Or have you changed your stand on this?

[Debra A]

I believe the characters were twisted by the reporter, but it's possible it was Wess. Considering that the club had only about 15 'members' but many times that in attendees, Wess would have been telling the truth, perhaps with a wink, when he said that the man (Schwartz) was not a member of his club.

Tom, according to the inquest reporting, Wess claimed that the club had 75 to 80 'members' and that there were about 90 to 100 'attendees' the night of the murder.

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"I thought your personal opinion was that it was Stride's secret lover who contaminated the scene. Or have you changed your stand on this?"

My stance is that IF the blood was transferred by means of a fingertip touch, then the blood MUST have been absolutely fresh when it was transferred, not to give away fingerprints. Moreover, the fingertip touch MUST have been a tentative one if this was what happened, otherwise there would have been fingerprint impressions anyway. Blood is God´s gift to the forensic experts, Maria - it has that sticky quality that makes it almost comparable to soft clay when it comes to reproducing fingerprints.

With this in mind, my suggestion was and remains that the killer - who may or may not have been an aquaintance of Stride´s - would have been the only person who could have transferred the blood fingertipwise to the back of Stride´s hand without setting off prints.

Johnston would have been on stage much too late to avoid fingerprints - and feeling for the pulse is made by rather a firm grip.

Do the experiment yourself when you have some spare time: get hold of some fresh blood, dip you fingertip in it, press the tip towards the back of your hand - and see what happens!


The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

with a chaser

I thought in the article the club secretary (Wess) said that the man who gave chase was not a member of the club (although he seemed to have known his name but now forgotten it) and not the man being chased-which was Schwartz?

The way The Echo/The Scotsman puts it, Schwartz was chasing Pipeman. This could be 1) a mix up by the journalist, 2) William Wess pressured by The Echo and trying to muddle up the waters, pretending he doesn't recall a thing, 3) William Wess narrating propaganda about the heroics of some anarchist. (Though "technically" the chaser was not an official member of the IWEC.)

"Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it." Those?

Well, the accuracy of newspaper reports, Debs. Unless the other newspapers briefly discussing "a domestic quarrell" mention multiple witnesses?

[mariab]

Johnston would have been on stage much too late to avoid fingerprints - and feeling for the pulse is made by rather a firm grip.

I know what you mean, but time of death for Stride is not fixed, plus it was dark and Johnston was inexperienced with murder.

Do the experiment yourself when you have some spare time: get hold of some fresh blood, dip you fingertip in it, press the tip towards the back of your hand - and see what happens!

Have got some experience with this. A relatively deep cut from clumsily opening a tin can can take up to 15'min. until the running blood clots, and this despite applying lots of pressure with toilet paper. Nobody applied pressure on Stride's bleeding neck.
Another similar phenomenon: When I figure skate on sh*tty, sticky ice (like at the Bercy stadium in Paris) I frequently cut my fingers trying to clean the sticky snow away from my (sharpened) blades. These cuts annoyingly bleed for at least half an hour and drop perfectly rounded blood drops on the ice that truly look like grapes! Since I started with Ripperology, whenever these blood dripping cuts on my hands happen, I invariably get reminded of Stride. Next time it happens, I should maybe take pics or a video and post it here. :-)

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"it was dark and Johnston was inexperienced with murder"

That, Maria, would not affect the clotting of the blood. It clots in darkness too! And Johnston lays down the exact state of the blood at the inquest: "There was a stream of blood down to the gutter; it was all clotted. There was very little blood near the neck; it had all run away."

All clotted, thus - and very little blood near the neck.

"Nobody applied pressure on Stride's bleeding neck."

... where there was "very little blood", since it "had all run away", Maria. That clearly points to a scenario where there was only clotted or clotting blood about - just like Johnson says. And even if it had been totally fresh, the pressure against the hand by a medicos firm grip would have told the story.

To my mind, this Johnston-did-it story is a complete non-starter.

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

One observance by several witnesses,is the almost total darkness of the yard. As the gate was open,it may be presumed,by the absence of any volume of filtering light,that immediately in the gateway,and for a distance into the street,light must have been preety poor.Interesting in regard to evidence given.

[lynn cates]

vacation

Hello Dave. But look on the bright side. At least you would get a lovely trip to a seaside resort. (Heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

youth

Hello (again) Dave. It was likely on account of his tender age.

Cheers.
LC