Arbeter Fraint's Take

[mariab]

To Wickerman:
It's also a plausible possibility that PC Lamb and not Dr. Johnston compromised the scene, or that they BOTH compromised the scene in combination. According to other newspaper reports, Stride's hands were opened and the cachous examined prior to Dr. Phillips arriving at the scene. The important thing is to explain the "grapes" here, since we know for a fact that they never existed.

To Lynn:
I assume your "BS" refers to "bullshit" then. ;-)
Why are you so totally against a “mutilatus interruptus“, Lynn?

Short highjack and whining:
Just wanted to say that for the next 10 months I'll be constantly mobile, pendling between Chicago, Berlin, Paris, then back to Chicago in the fall, and I can only do Ripperology on the side and infrequently. At some point by this summer I hope to have concluded my research for Berner Street, including an attempt for a 'comprehensive' newspaper search. And I haven't even managed to properly study The Ultimate and SY investigates, so it will take a while!

[Tom_Wescott]

The article Lynn had translated is full of unique detail, new names, and fresh avenues of research. So let's not let it devolve into another ridiculous discussion of grapes. There were no more grapes in her hand than there was a 'box of candies' as described in the same sentence. This article was compiled from two sources - club members and press reports. Louis Diemshitz was quite possibly not interviewed first hand at all. That might seem strange, but keep in mind that he was the STEWARD of the club and not present or as involved as members such as Wess.

I suspect that Gilyarovsky is one and the same as 'Gilman' mentioned in some press reports and, as Maria suggested, might be one and the same as Isaac Kozebrodski, who was fond of changing his name (he was known by most clubmen as 'Isaacs').

The lack of mention of Schwartz is not at all surprising as there was almost certainly a gag order in place and the author of the piece (probably Krantz or this 'Fraff' fellow) either didn't know anything about it, or he wisely didn't want to cause any more grief between the club and police.

I only saw the article tonight when Lynn kindly e-mailed it to me, and really haven't had a chance to read it carefully, but these are a few of my initial thoughts. I'm sure I'll have more later.

I would still remind everyone that this IS a press report and as such it should not be considered an authority over more reliable sources (police reports, etc) simply because it emanated from the newspaper printed on the premises of the murder. The men of the Arbeter Fraint made no bones that their paper was first and foremost a propaganda tool biased towards their cause and anything they publish must be accepted with that in mind.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

You asked where Der Arbeter Fraint might have got its 12.45 am time frame.

Echo, 1st October 1888—

"In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally [?] fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation."

Regards,

Simon

[Hunter]

Notice how palpable it comes off that the IWEC was feeling under siege, with both police and secret police tearing up the place, and with the police trying to trick Wess into a confession about his cigar contraband. By the by, does "the headman of this group" refer to Abberline or PC Smith?

Hi Maria,

Several 'top' policemen were there that night. Abberline was not one of them and PC Smith would have been low in the pecking order. Reid, Pinhorn, West and even Supt. Arnold were there at the scene. Any one of that group might have been considered the 'headman' of the group. I doubt the club members knew the pecking order of the police. Same goes for the physicians; they wouldn't have known Johnston from Blackwell or either from Phillips, who was the last medico to arrive.

I agree with what Tom said and would only add that the article displays the confusion of the moment and the willingness of this bunch to not let a crisis go to waste by tying in their politics or the hypocrisy of making a profit of this poor woman's death.

[mariab]

Hello Mr. Wood.
This report from The Echo (also printed in The Scotsman) was discussed in depth in the other Stride ongoing thread (Was Stride's date a romantic one? http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6432 - and please let me cringe deeply to the thread title, lol). My opinion is that the Echo/Scotsman story evidently shows Wess covering for Schwartz (and Wess appears to have always been present when Schwartz talked – to the police or to the press). Which begs the question: Since the IWEC presented the story that the killer was interrupted by Diemshitz around 1.00 a.m., isn't 00.45 a.m. a tiny bit early for them to be claiming that the murder took place? But possibly this could be a reporter's mixup.

To Tom:
Who's Fraff?

[Tom_Wescott]

The Echo report was the subject of a thread of its own, started by myself, in 2006 or 2007. I tried to find it in the search engine so that I could post the proper text without all the omissions, but it no longer seems to be on the Casebook. Those who want to make things more complicated than they are will use this article to argue that Pipeman was known, whereas what really happened is the reporter seems to have gotten the characters confused and it was Israel Schwartz who was known to Wess, who may have been his interpreter to the police.

Fraff? I was going by memory. Someone mentioned in the article as being an associate of Philip Krantz. I likely misremembered the name.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Maria,

You've got me confused.

When did the IWEC present the story that the killer was interrupted by Diemshitz around 1.00 a.m?

Thanks.

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Good to see you around again. Where ya been?

Just for you.

Echo, 1st October 1888 -



Regards,

Simon

[mariab]

Hi Cris. Got any idea of who from the police would have been responsible with investigating William Wess' cigar contraband? (A Victorian ATF of sorts, lol.) I really need to read up about all these police officials. Inspector Arnold was in superior ranking from all the ones you've mentioned, right?

Same goes for the physicians; they wouldn't have known Johnston from Blackwell or either from Phillips, who was the last medico to arrive.

That's pretty trasparent reading the AF and other reports.

I agree with what Tom said and would only add that the article displays the confusion of the moment and the willingness of this bunch to not let a crisis go to waste by tying in their politics or the hypocrisy of making a profit of this poor woman's death.

I agree on everything apart from the confusion. A bit of confusion (early time of death, the "grapes") is expected at first, but to me this article appears VERY deliberate in its complaints against the police, in its presenting the IWEC members as persecuted (which they undoubtedly were), in the TOTAL lack of a mention of Schwartz, plus the prominent display of compassion for the victims appears a bit flimsy too. Possibly. And let's not forget that Philip Krantz or whoever wrote this had 4 entire days to prepare the text, so his decisions must have been pretty deliberate.

And by the way Cris (or anyone else experienced for that matter), could you please comment on this from the other Stride thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman
I think the reason Schwartz was not called was because he had spoken to the press before he was due to appear.
What do you think of this, Hunter? Mortimer and Packer (who talked to the press) weren't called either, though for obvious reasons. Do you see a legal reason to not subpoena a witness having talked to the press in Victorian England? In the US today it frequently happens like this.

You've got me confused. When did the IWEC present the story that the killer was interrupted by Diemshitz around 1.00 a.m?

In the AF report posted here by Lynn Cates.
At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body.
(I like the way Dr. Turtletaub spelled Diemshitz, by the way. Almost as much as Tom's "Fraff/Frak" fella. If I had a pet, I'd name it like this.)

[Simon Wood]

Hi Maria,

Thanks, but AF mentions nothing about Diemschitz interrupting Stride's murderer.

Regards,

Simon

[mariab]

He mentioned this to other press reports and possibly at the inquest. I'm so sorry, no time to look this up now, gotta go back to my boss. I'll go through the papers and collect all relevant reports prior to writing my article, of course.

[Beowulf]

What is Arbeter Fraint? I take it it is a newspaper or a pamphlet printed back in 1888 for the Russian Jews.?

Is this a real copy of what was printed back then? I'm ignorant of this, forgive me for being so new to this.

[Fisherman]

On the grapes and cachous suggestion, why not try it yourself? Take a small bunch of grapes in your left hand and a number of paper-wrapped cachous in your right.

Now, try to eat them ...

The oblong, dark objects on Stride´s hand were not grapes - they were clots of blood, NOT transferred there by Edward Johnston.

The best,
Fisherman

[Beowulf]

"Yet that is not all. Tuesday at about 5 in the evening another dismembered woman was found not in East End but in West End near Westminster. The body was found among wood that must have been lying there for some time since it had already begun to rot. More parts were missing from this body [than from the other]. To this point there has been no trace of the murderer."

What murder was this?

This was fascinating Lynn. Thank you. Felt like 'being' there.

[Debra A]

Thanks very much for going to all the trouble of having this translated and posted, Lynn.

Re-the grapes. I'm with Maria and Tom on this. The club-men were the original source of the grape story in all the press reports. I would find it odder if there was no mention of the grapes in the clubs own account.

Likewise with the Schwartz story. I may be being pretty naive here, and as I don't subscribe to any of the theories that Schwartz was anything other than a witness at the moment (so I'm not with Tom or maria or anyone else on this one ); I would genuinely ask why would we expect Schwartz to be mentioned in the club's press account of what happened after Liz's body was found? Schwartz gave a statement of what he saw to police, only the Star took the story up in detail, other newspapers briefly mentioning someone had witnessed a 'domestic.'
Why would the AF journalists be any the wiser?

I have a question sort of relating to some thoughts I had on Schwartz but not fully worked through yet-is it true that once a witness has been used to identify a suspect, and he positively ID's someone who is known or later proven to be innocent-that his evidence is classed as no longer reliable and he can't be used as a witness anymore?