Arbeter Fraint's Take

[Bridewell]

Hi Lynn,

A very interesting document. Thank-you for getting it translated, and for opening it up to view by the rest of us.

What I find striking about this is the unqualified compassion for the murder victims. There is no hint of condemnation of their lifestyle, just an acknowledgement that the women concerned have no choice but to scrape a living in this manner.

Regards, Bridewell

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Interesting that Der Arbeter Fraint also times the Stride murder at about 12.45 [as per Dr. Blackwell], which kinda sorta kicks the 1.00 am Ripper interruptus story into touch.

Regards,

Simon

[Ginger]

That's fascinating! Thanks for sharing that - I'm sure it must have taken more than a little work.

-Ginger

[mariab]

Congratulations, Lynn. Your persistence and generosity gave us importance evidence here. Many thanks to Dr. Turtletaub too.

A few remarks:
- Gilyarovsky is in my opinion Isaac Kozebrodsky. The English speaking newspapers might have easily gotten his name wrong. The same about Volf Vess being William Wess.
- Like you said, NO trace whatsoever of the Schwartz story, which fits with the fact that Schwartz is also entirely missing from the AFs in 1903/1905, despite his documentedly having spoken in several anarchists' meetings. I think we ought to look in the very next AF issue too (of October 12?), just to be sure if they added anything about the case. But in my opinion, Schwartz was Schadensbegrenzung, concocted AFTER the fact.
Notice how palpable it comes off that the IWEC was feeling under siege, with both police and secret police tearing up the place, and with the police trying to trick Wess into a confession about his cigar contraband. By the by, does "the headman of this group" refer to Abberline or PC Smith?
- Re. the "grapes". Notice that the AF doesn't mention Dr. Johnston examining the body first, they only mention Dr. Phillips arriving "10 min. later". I'm not too surprised by them mentioning "grapes" since Diemshitz didn't properly look at the body illuminated until after Dr. Phillips arrived, by which time Johnston had already compromised the scene. Diemshitz thought there were "grapes" up until the inquest.
- Time of death makes total sense to me, though you might disagree.

Oh, and Lynn, don't know if what you emailed me was the Yiddish original, but the ziplock file doesn't open on my computer.

[lynn cates]

time

Hello Simon. Thanks. As you know, I have been an advocate of the earlier time frame. Of course, one wonders where they derived this time.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Anarchism

Hello Bridewell. Thanks. I'm not sure if you are conversant with Anarchist dogma, but they argue that a married woman is, in fact, a kind of prostitute.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

grape, just grape

Hello Sally. Thanks.

Yes indeed. That grape story really shook me up. Wonder how much weight to put on it?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

in for a penny, in for a pound

Hello Ginger. Yes, and about L500.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Quote AF:
“The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.“
Yeah, but this is hearsay, just like the “grapes“ are a misunderstanding of Diemshitz'.

[lynn cates]

this, taht, other

Hello Maria. Thanks.

"Gilyarovsky is in my opinion Isaac Kozebrodsky."

Zounds! Never thought of that one.

"Like you said, NO trace whatsoever of the Schwartz story, which fits with the fact that Schwartz is also entirely missing from the AFs in 1903/1905, despite his documentedly having spoken in several anarchists' meetings."

Yes, odd, innit?

"I think we ought to look in the very next AF issue too (of October 12?), just to be sure if they added anything about the case."

That is ALREADY translated. (See Chris' Wiki.)

"But in my opinion, Schwartz was Schadensbegrenzung, concocted AFTER the fact."

Hmm, say that 10 times real fast.

"Notice how palpable it comes off that the IWEC was feeling under siege, with both police and secret police tearing up the place, and with the police trying to trick Wess into a confession about his cigar contraband."

Yes, I noticed that.

"By the by, does "the headman of this group" refer to Abberline or PC Smith?"

Can't say.

"Re. the "grapes". Notice that the AF doesn't mention Dr. Johnston examining the body first, they only mention Dr. Phillips arriving "10 min. later". I'm not too surprised by them mentioning "grapes" since Diemshitz didn't properly look at the body illuminated until after Dr. Phillips arrived, by which time Johnston had already compromised the scene. Diemshitz thought there were "grapes" up until the inquest."

Yes. I had written off the grapes. Nearly had an infarction when I read that.

"Time of death makes total sense to me, though you might disagree."

Not at all. Was delighted to see that, but wonder how they fixed the time?

"Oh, and Lynn, don't know if what you emailed me was the Yiddish original, but the ziplock file doesn't open on my computer."

It was a Word doc. Hmm.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

official

Hello Maria. Hearsay? Very well. But from whom? That was NEVER the official story--so far as I know.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Maria, Lynn.

(Maria)
"Re. the "grapes". Notice that the AF doesn't mention Dr. Johnston examining the body first, they only mention Dr. Phillips arriving "10 min. later". I'm not too surprised by them mentioning "grapes" since Diemshitz didn't properly look at the body illuminated until after Dr. Phillips arrived, by which time Johnston had already compromised the scene. Diemshitz thought there were "grapes" up until the inquest."

(Lynn)
Yes. I had written off the grapes. Nearly had an infarction when I read that.

The grapes existed, like I have maintained all along.
You don't get fruit stains on her handkerchief, a grape stalk in the yard, and two people seeing them in her hand, for nothing.

Not that they are important, they're not. But it has developed into an urban legend that they didn't exist, yet like many other argument fueld by assumption, the assumption is wrong.
People are scared of the grapes.

Incidently Lynn, champion work there old boy!
Their presentation is very unique, almost a casual conversational style.

Much appreciated, job well done!
Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

Hello Lynn. You totally cracked me up. :-) And so sorry I forgot that the other AF translated is from Oct. 12. Thus, VERY interesting fact: NO mention of Schwartz whatsoever in the AF issues after the murder, despite William Wess having indirectly mentioned Schwartz in The Echo/The Scotsman. Question is, did Wess approach The Echo, or did they come to him? My gut feeling says, they came to him.

but wonder how they fixed the time? {...} Hearsay? Very well. But from whom? That was NEVER the official story--so far as I know.

Precisely! Did you notice that the time the AF gives for the murder to allegedly having occurred fits with Schwartz' testimony? I wonder why that is. ;-) "Hearsay" was just another interpretation. If they heard it on the street. But I mostly see coincidence here (with Schwartz' testimony).

Yes. I had written off the grapes. Nearly had an infarction when I read that.

Oh Lynn, don't worry about the grapes. It's a known fact that Diemshitz got duped on this and even testified to this at the inquest (if I'm not mistaken). The quote about “grapes“ was in the entire press for a while, at least until the inquest and until the Packer matter got settled by the police. The "grapes" were most plausibly blood "clots" tranferred from her neck to her hand by Dr. Johnston when he examined the body and checked her pulse before Dr. Phillips got there. If you don't have the old Ripper Notes article discussing this (and making much sense), I can xerox it and send it to you.
And I was sure that good old Wick would get motivated to start about Packer and his “suspect“ all over again.

[lynn cates]

real handful

Hello Jon. Thanks for that. Sounds odd if she were killed with BOTH hands full.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mutilatus interruptus

Hello Maria. Thanks.

"Did you notice that the time the AF gives for the murder to allegedly having occurred fits with Schwartz' testimony? I wonder why that is."

Maria, call me a crackpot--I've been called that before--but I sincerely believe that one of the lads saw Liz being done. And I believe the clock read 12:40-12:45. And THAT is what inspired the time of the Schwartz story.

Notice, by the way, that IF they are right about the time, then Diemshitz could NOT have interrupted the assailant. So, either;

1. A club member did the honours.

or

2. No mutilation was ever intended.

Cheers.
LC