Arbeter Fraint's Take

[mariab]

detective agency plus the WVC

Thank you much for corroborating, Debs and Lynn. I'm SO beat right now (after working since dawn, running errands all day, and just flown to Paris from Berlin), I can't think straight. Can I look into this after a night's sleep?
It's been my understanding so far that James Hall was Le Grand's private minion for odd jobs, cleaning his knives, clerk at the (inactive?) detective agency. I'm not clear why we're suddenly considering Hall being employed by Le Grand having anything to do with the WVC? (Or maybe I'm too thick and exhausted to get it.)

By the by Debs, if you give me a week or two I can finally look into Le Grand's bank account, I have a contact at the LMA for researching finances. If we found something, maybe we could establish what was going on with the detective agency, perhaps even his newspapermen contacts. Though don't hold your breath for us finding much relevant info. A couple years ago I researched Rossini's bank account at the Archivio di Banco in Naples, and he ONLY did withdrawals. Apparently he payed everyone in cash.
Other people I'm also VERY interested in pertaining to their finances are Joseph Aarons and Pịtr Rachkovsky.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I agree if Packer sold grapes and cachous at the same time to the same couple, but he might not have made the association if a man on his own, or Stride on her own, had bought cachous from him at some earlier time.

Hi Caz.
Well, she appeared to have spent at least 6d on something in her last 4-5 hours on earth.
Why was she all "dressed up" to go out at 8 o'clock Sat. night, to meet someone special, or was it her way of "putting the goods on sale"?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

When you and Tom tossed out the grapes, and you tossed out Schwartz's account as bogus, that was how I saw ripper 'minimalism' at work on a smaller scale. They got in the way of your 'Grand' plan so they had to go.

Aghast!
Here's me thinking I was the only one who could see how all this was being contrived.

Cheers, Caz!
Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

The fact that Packer lied was known to the contemporaries LONG before Le Grand became visible on the radar. Apparently you're not satisfied with his physical description on the murder scene. Not that I'm willing or trying to convince you of anything. To each their own opinion.

Maria.
I'm pretty sure there's a solid consensus among researchers that Packer is not a reliable source.
Given that he was apparently confused over times; 11:00-11:30, or 12:00-12:30?, and giving slightly different ages for the man he saw, and first claiming to see no-one loitering around Dutfields Yard, then giving a story about the couple buying grapes. We can reasonably declare Packer an unreliable witness.

That said, given his age at 57, at what point do we draw the line between him being at first reluctant to talk, then being confused over what time he saw the couple and finally being inaccurate in his fleeting descriptions of the mans age?
Or, just being a liar?

We are dealing with people here, with all their foibles, not machines.

Even if Packer didn't truly sell any grapes to them, this does not mean the grapes did not exist.

There seems to be three common courses of action when something can't be easily explained (or is refused to be looked at?).
1) To brand the witness a liar.
2) To suggest the witness didn't even exist.
3) To dismiss a witness because their statement was not sworn-to.

The police did not label Packer a liar so no-one else has reason to.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Well, this doctor managed to spot some
[ATTACH]13499[/ATTACH]

Debs.
I'm sorry, I forgot to ask, in that "Madame Chanterelle" snippet, did the doctors say they also found grape skins & seeds?

Regards, Jon S.

[Archaic]

Hi Lynn.

I wanted to thank you for having the Arbeiter Fraint translated. It's quite interesting, and it was a great idea on your part.

Well done!

Best regards,
Archaic

[mariab]

Plus it was also really painful in the wallet, Archaic! Lynn has invested TONS in this project, in fact I feel he's due to have his statue erected on Henrique Street (former Berner Street).

Nice try protecting your fave witness Wick, but it won't work. The police were already on to Packer after a couple days, and you're insisting being clueless a century and counting later! As for your and Caz' use of the term "minimalist Ripperology", you're simply using it in the sense of "selective Ripperology". Has nothing whatsoever to do with "minimalism".

[Debra A]

Debs.
I'm sorry, I forgot to ask, in that "Madame Chanterelle" snippet, did the doctors say they also found grape skins & seeds?

Regards, Jon S.

Jon, no, they didn't mention seeds or skins at all in the source I posted from.

[Debra A]

Jon, I checked a Jurisprudence book that included the Chantrelle poisoning case details and it said that grape seeds were found on Madame's pillow, adhering to fragments of orange flesh (there was argument between the prosecution and defence if this was vomit) there was also a grape seed reportedly found in the bowels.

[Debra A]

It's been my understanding so far that James Hall was Le Grand's private minion for odd jobs, cleaning his knives, clerk at the (inactive?) detective agency. I'm not clear why we're suddenly considering Hall being employed by Le Grand having anything to do with the WVC? (Or maybe I'm too thick and exhausted to get it.)

On this occassion, Maria, you're right and I am wrong. (I won't bother to try and excuse myself, I don't mind admitting when I get it wrong )
It's been a long time since I read all the newspaper articles I have and I thought it was one I had saved but not read yet, but I do recall it now. It does seem like Hall is saying Grande was working as a PI in Oct.88, when he picked up Hall in the streets and not that while Hall was employed by Grande as a clerk, Grande was working as a PI October to June, or Oct and June, as I read it.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Bunny. Thanks for the kind remarks. Hopefully, there will be another article further down the line?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I checked a Jurisprudence book that included the Chantrelle poisoning case details and it said that grape seeds were found on Madame's pillow, adhering to fragments of orange flesh (there was argument between the prosecution and defence if this was vomit) there was also a grape seed reportedly found in the bowels.

Eeww. On her pillow? Was this Mme Chantrelle a prostitute or an artist? The name somehow sounds familiar. As for eating grapes and COMPLETELY avoiding the seeds, this is not feasible. Hence not surprised at all about the fact that seeds were found inside her bowels.

It does seem like Hall is saying Grande was working as a PI in Oct.88, when he picked up Hall in the streets and not that while Hall was employed by Grande as a clerk, Grande was working as a PI October to June, or Oct and June, as I read it.

No problem, I've been wrong myself tons of times.
Do you mean October 1888-June 1889? I have to think about what you're saying (about the detective agency vs. the WVC timetable) when I get a minute of quite concentration, right now here things are too hectic as I'm running around the neighborhood taking care of different business. (Resolved a HUGE problem about the stupid library initially not granting us access to some Meyerbeer autographs discovered by me recently, fetched the tickets left for me by this HOT guy for his rap concert tonight, didn't manage getting hold of one real good archivist/criminologist I know to pick his brain about the Paris torso murder but hopefully tomorrow, too late now to go check the Archives Nationales inventaries for Rob's Bertillon stuff, but equally tomorrow.)

[Hunter]

Consider, at the time of the autopsy on Sunday, who was talking about grapes?, the first mention we read is by Diemschitz in the Monday evening papers. Therefore, at the autopsy Phillips may not have been able to single out the fleshy grape matter from the rest of the contents of her stomach, merely reflecting that the stomach contents certainly did not include seeds or skins.

The post-mortem on Elizabeth Stride was on Monday. Phillips was at the Eddowes post-mortem on Sunday afternoon as this victim was given precedent because of the mutilations and Brown wanted Phillips to be there. Nevertheless, you are correct that Phillips would not necessarily be looking for grapes at the time. He was asked about the grapes upon being recalled on Oct. 5 after the grape story had circulated. Naturally, the ever conservative divisional surgeon gave the only practical answer he could give in retrospect.

Still, I would find it remarkable if Mr. Phillips had failed to see any grapes or a stalk at the crime scene. He had been to many crime scenes and part of his routine would have been to supervise the removal of the body and examine the area for clues afterward. At the Chapman murder site he did just that; even examining the pale at the water tap and the passageway for signs of blood. He was later called back to Hanbury St. to examine a wall at a neighboring residence when someone reported possible blood stains there. It would have been out of character to not closely examine the area around where the body had been; if only to see if the murderer might have dropped something or some other item had been under the body.

[Wickerman]

Still, I would find it remarkable if Mr. Phillips had failed to see any grapes or a stalk at the crime scene. He had been to many crime scenes and part of his routine would have been to supervise the removal of the body and examine the area for clues afterward. At the Chapman murder site he did just that;

True Cris, but you are comparing night with day. Hanbury St. was light when Chapman's body was removed, but Stride was taken away about 4:00 am?
Subsequent to that, the yard was washed down I believe.

How many grapes are we talking about two, three? They were supposedly bought a good hour beforehand, so likely not many were left by 1:00 am.

I don't see any clear indication of who examined the yard, or when. I was assuming the PC who washed away the blood did it before sunrise to remove the unsightly mess.
So if the yard was swilled down while it was still dark then any examination must have been done beforehand.

Regards, Jon S.

[Fisherman]

It was a murder investigation, Jon, very obviously with implications potentially pointing to a Ripper killing. And the police and doctors on site observed that she had a doubled-up paper in her left hand, with cachous in it. That went to prove what they already knew - that people may hold things in their hands.
Furthermore, they ALSO knew that many a killer had been found and convicted due to the fact that victims often engage in fights with their killers, grabbing at them, trying to push them away - and ending up with a ripped-away button, textile strands, hair, blood; all sorts of things, in their hands or under their nails. There is no other part that is as vital to examine as the hands when it comes to murder victims! It is true today and was equally true and known back in 1888.

This tells me that when the right hand, probably invisible as long as Stride lay in her original position, was of paramount interest to the investigators as she was turned over, and that no effort was spared to find out if she held something in it - or had dropped something out of it. The PC:s would have shone their lights on the spots of interest and they would have been extremely keen to pick up whatever useful clue the hand would potentially yeld.

This is how I see it.

The best,
Fisherman