Was Liz's "Date" Necessarily a Romantic One?

[mariab]

FASCINATING, Cris, and I'm so glad you're preparing an article on this. Will it be about Baxter/coroners and politics? The Ripper mags most definitely need some well-researched articles covering Victorian politics in relation to the case.

No, it wasn't a matter of incompetency in the Chapman case. It was a conflict of interest. The police were conducting an ongoing investigation and thought some details should not be public knowledge. If you will remember, at one point, Mr. Phillips even accused Baxter of 'thwarting justice' by attempting to divulge the missing organ details from him.

I see. In this case it makes sense that Baxter might have mellowed down his behaviour after his failing with his "missing organs" theory. (Shades of Trevor Marriott?) Plus, like you said, by the time of the Stride inquest Swanson had gained significantly in experience, authority, and power.

I don't know, Maria. I don't think Schwartz was hidden away because Swanson does explain him to the HO in his report and both Warren and Anderson mention him as well.

Yet I'm still wondering: In case Schwartz had gone in hiding shortly before the inquest, would Swanson, Warren, and co. have come out completely clean about the fact? Or maybe, would they have covered this by omission?

[Wickerman]

There is actually an article that offers some sort of possible corroboration, Jon. It was published in "The Scotsman" on the 2nd of October and the relevant part goes like this:

" In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is interesected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street, and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

Compare this quote from The Echo, 1st Oct.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

Identical stories, apparently The Scotsman used the report published by The Echo, or their same source.

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

Thank you so much for posting this Wickerman, I was under the impression I had mixed up the Echo with the Scotsman report when Fish posted the Scotsman. Now I see they are identical. There might be even other, undiscovered reports of Schwartz' testimony. I'll be attempting a 'comprehensive' newspaper search at some point in April/May, but for the next 2 weeks I'm grounded, working mainly on my book. (And further looking for Schwartz in the AFs from the spring of 1905.)

[Wickerman]

Hi Maria, you're welcome, in fact that is the original article I intended to post instead of the Star, but I couldn't remember where I had read it.

What I find interesting is the suggestion there was a rumour on the street that the man being chased was the murderer.
Where would anybody get that idea from before Schwartz story was first published in the Star the same evening?

If the theory was current on Sunday, how come neither the press nor the police had not heard of it from any of the many interviews they conducted.
On top of this, we read that the Secretary had known the second man's name, but couldn't remember it.

So are we to believe the Club Secretary new Pipemans name?, yet had not divulged it to the police? If any club member had told them that the supposed murderer had been chased by someone from the club, it seems strange we do not know about it from them.
The police did take statements from every club member, which includes this secretary, before any were allowed to leave.

Yet the police & press both knew that two men had run eastward along Fairclough St., but was Kozebrodski actually a club member? Is this the name the Secretary couldn't remember?
In other words, is this just a confused story about Diemschitz & Kozebrodski running along Fairclough St.?

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

a theory on Berner Street

Where would anybody get that idea from before Schwartz story was first published in the Star the same evening? If the theory was current on Sunday, how come neither the press nor the police had not heard of it from any of the many interviews they conducted. On top of this, we read that the Secretary had known the second man's name, but couldn't remember it. {...} Yet the police & press both knew that two men had run eastward along Fairclough St., but was Kozebrodski actually a club member? Is this the name the Secretary couldn't remember? In other words, is this just a confused story about Diemschitz & Kozebrodski running along Fairclough St.?

Hello Wickerman. No, I don't believe this was about William Wess disremembering Kozebrodski's name. In my interpretation, this is William Wess giving an interview to The Echo in an attempt to control things about his Club post Stride. I also suspect that William Wess had his hand in the Schwartz Star interview (possibly translating and manipulating the testimony), and that Wess went with Schwartz to Leman Street to translate. (Remember, Wess went there documentedly with Leon Goldstein.)

So are we to believe the Club Secretary new Pipemans name?, yet had not divulged it to the police?

Pipeman's physical description fits Le Grand. Le Grand's boss Joseph Aarons had approached the IWEC to see if the WVC could organize meetings in the IWEC premisses (this is documented by a newspaper report). This approach failed, and we're not clear yet what kind of conflict existed between the WVC and the IWEC. There was a Schwartz Polish/Hungarian/no English speaking anarchist orator acquainted with William Wess and followed by the French secret police in 1902-1905 whom the AF omits mentioning, despite our knowing that Schwartz prominently spoke at certain dates in Whitechapel (this is corroborated by French spy reports located by me at the Archives Nationales in Paris). My suspicion is that Wess used Schwartz (a minor IWEC resident) to testify about "Pipeman" to apply pressure on Le Grand, who was getting on Wess' bad side. This is a theory I've formulated based on earlier interpretations by other Ripperologists, but developed further. I've been researching things with Lynn and will be writing an article on this at some point in late spring/early summer.
Still need to research a lot of stuff on the WVC, plus I was hoping to manage nailing Schwartz, whom I personally suspect to have gone in hiding before the inquest. (The anarchist orator Schwartz documentedly kept changing his first name.)

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman. No, I don't believe this was about William Wess disremembering Kozebrodski's name. In my interpretation, this is William Wess giving an interview to The Echo in an attempt to control things about his Club post Stride.

Thankyou Maria.
Strange that William Wess never mentioned this story when he was giving evidence at the Inquest. Are you sure Wess is the Secretary for the IWEC?, he only describes himself as a member.
Swanson describes Diemschitz as the Secretary, but Diemschitz himself says he is the Steward.
We know from Wess's testimony that it was not him who saw anyone running down the street, as he left too early, and he was with his brother.

I also suspect that William Wess had his hand in the Schwartz Star interview (possibly translating and manipulating the testimony), and that Wess went with Schwartz to Leman Street to translate. (Remember, Wess went there documentedly with Leon Goldstein.)

Yes, I recall you or Tom mentioning something along those lines before.

Still need to research a lot of stuff on the WVC, plus I was hoping to manage nailing Schwartz, whom I personally suspect to have gone in hiding before the inquest. (The anarchist orator Schwartz documentedly kept changing his first name.)

You think the police couldn't find Schwartz for the Inquest? Wouldn't that have warned the police that something was amiss?

All the witnesses who saw Stride with a suspect (Marshall, Brown, Smith) were not scheduled to appear at the Inquest for another week, by Oct. 5th.
I think the reason Schwartz was not called was because he had spoken to the press before he was due to appear.
The story which appeared in the Star was slightly altered from his police statement so the authorities cannot reasonably use his testimony, as like Packer, Schwartz evidently changed some part of his story.

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

Strange that William Wess never mentioned this story when he was giving evidence at the Inquest. {...} We know from Wess's testimony that it was not him who saw anyone running down the street, as he left too early, and he was with his brother.

Strange and intriguing. I'm sure Lynn will have things to add here, esp. about what Wess said in the inquest about the door to the Yard. And I'm not saying Wess himself saw the 2 folks running/chasing each other, just that Wess appears to have always been present when Schwartz talked – to the police or to the press. And the Echo/Scotsman story evidently shows Wess covering for Schwartz.

Are you sure Wess is the Secretary for the IWEC?, he only describes himself as a member. Swanson describes Diemschitz as the Secretary, but Diemschitz himself says he is the Steward.

Haven't been too much into the IWEC of lately (have my hands full with my own work and with searching for Schwartz in a Yiddish alphabet soup), but it's my impression that Wess was the secretary and Diemshitz the steward, fetching stuff for the kitchen etc.. And Diemshitz' wife was the cook. Lynn can verify. Wess was experienced and streetwise with his activities in the cigars trade, and I see him as a bit manipulative, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he minimized his importance in the IWEC hierarchy in an interview post Stride.

Yes, I recall you or Tom mentioning something along those lines before.

Just to clarify, Tom Wescott first expressed the suspicion Schwartz was related to the IWEC and figured out that Wess might have possibly translated for Schwartz, since Wess documentedly went to Leman Street with Leon Goldstein. Tom also discovered the Evening News newspaper report which links the IWEC to the WVC (unless it was Debs, in which case I apologize). I'm the one who located a Schwartz anarchist orator in French secret police reports in 1902-1905 and further researching Schwartz. Plus Tom's case of Le Grand on Berner Street has a HUGE hole if Schwartz' story (concerning Pipeman) were to be revealed a fabrication, but my own theory goes a step further and completely covers that. I'll discuss it in my article.

You think the police couldn't find Schwartz for the Inquest? Wouldn't that have warned the police that something was amiss?

I'm not sure if the police would have liked to advertize the fact that they lost a key witness, esp. with the WVC and Packer trying to make the police look bad, the kidney sent to the WVC, the WVC becoming prominent, etc..

I think the reason Schwartz was not called was because he had spoken to the press before he was due to appear.

What do you think of this, Hunter? Mortimer and Packer (who talked to the press) weren't called either, though for obvious reasons. Do you see a legal reason to not subpoena a witness having talked to the press in Victorian England?

like Packer, Schwartz evidently changed some part of his story.

Yep, and part of my theory on Berner Street (massively simplified) is this: Le Grand used Packer as a pawn, Wess used Schwartz. A power play on Berner Street? :-)

[Nino]

thank you

This thread drives me cray, congrats tou you all!! In these months I've read several books on case but I feel always unsatisfied: too much miss! One day I hope there will be a good book focused on "Berner's misteries" because the story is too fragmented and the characters too ambiguous to reveal the track of truth. Who really was Elisabeth Gustafsdotter-Liz Stride etc., who killed her why and how? Now I know this case is too complex for a simple reader, only you and your works can enlight those dark past days, if possible. In the meanwhile, readers like me should wait for, sometimes bringing a flower to the grave of our granma Liz (not easy to find even).
So I give thanks, it's very very interesting to read about your theories, your doubts and confrontation.
Please, keep on investigating!!!

[Hunter]

Hi Nino,

I agree, there is much complexity here; no matter who one believes was the murderer of Elizabeth Stride. What is most rewarding in my mind, when it comes to the recent history of the study of the murder of Elizabeth Stride, is two things.

One... and Tom Wescott has often emphasized this... is that for years the murder of Elizabeth Stride had been treated almost as a footnote in most texts on the subject of Jack the Ripper; a mere prelude to the more sensational murder that happened in Mitre Square later that same night. Now, her murder is given the prominence that is fitting to the soul that perished on that late September night... and the realization that her murder is the central figure in the chain of events attributed to the 'Autumn of Terror'. Everyone realizes it is the main ambiguity in a series of murders which, would otherwise, be easily traced to the actions of a single serial murderer; given what happened to the other victims who fell in that short three month period. The arguments on both sides are valid.

Second... is that people who may disagree on who the culprit was, have worked together in this instance to contribute information that has never been found or considered before. It has yet to solve the mystery... and there may not be a solution, but because of the efforts of all of these people we know more about Elizabeth Stride, the International Working Men's Education Club, Berner Street itself and the police investigation surrounding it than was ever known even a decade ago... And that, in itself, is a reward of immense importance.

And Elizabeth Stride... whether she was a victim of the miscreant called 'Jack the Ripper' or not... has finally gotten the consideration and intense study that she has always deserved.