Was Liz's "Date" Necessarily a Romantic One?

[lynn cates]

hypothesis

Hello (again) Christer. Your scenario to Abby is quite helpful and the sort of thing I seek.

On this hypothesis, do you have a good possibility for where he obtained that drink? A place on Commercial Road, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"We are agreed, then, that the coincidences boggle the mind and, if we didn't know better, would be dismissed by us as impossible?"

If we are speaking of the Watts/Stride thing, then absolutely!

"do you have a good possibility for where he obtained that drink? A place on Commercial Road, perhaps?"

Perhaps. Or perhaps he had a pocket flask of his own...

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Abby:

"But why would he return to Liz with such an immediate angry mood and behaviour if he breifly left her for such an innocent reason, especially since they had been hanging out peacefully, even lovingly, for a long period of time?"

Maybe he didn´t, Abby. Let´s not forget that we do not have all the bits and pieces, and we tend to include only what we know when looking for a logical solution.

We have it on record that BS man stopped and exchanged words with Liz before the altercation with the physical exchange took it´s start.
So what did she say? We don´t know.
Let´s - just to point to one possibility out of a thousand - assume that when he left her (after Smith´s sighting) he may have done so in a manner that Stride did not like at all. Maybe he said "I´m through with you, silly cow" and went away. We just don´t know. After htta, maybe he had a drink, softening his heart up, and he returned to make up, only to find that Stride asked him to go to hell, and then ...

The bits and pieces, Abby - that´s what we lack here. And depending on how they looked, the scenario may have differed wildly.

I´m sure that you can think of other, equally mondane and viable solutions to the question you ask!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi fish
I sure can. I'm of the opinion that BS man left frustated after numerous attempts to get Liz into an alley and then losing his temper returned to her rather quickly and attempted to use force.

[lynn cates]

flasks etc.

Hello Christer.

"If we are speaking of the Watts/Stride thing, then absolutely!"

Ah, splendid.

A hip flask? Certainly possible. Do you think he was heading home at that point?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

In the Star, the 1st of October? Can you post the relevant section?

Please judge for yourself Fisherman


The Star

LONDON. MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888.

INFORMATION WHICH MAY BE IMPORTANT

was given to the Leman-street police late yesterday afternoon by an Hungarian concerning this murder. This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line. He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane. The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is, in fact, to the effect that he

SAW THE WHOLE THING.

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb

A SECOND MAN CAME OUT

of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings. He described

THE MAN WITH THE WOMAN

as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society. The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.


Regards, Jon S.

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon!

Thanks for the post, but this is not what the Scotsman speaks of. Their article focuses on witnesses seeing Schwartz´s flight, and so it seemingly corroborates what Schwartz said.

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi Fish, thanks for posting the Scotsman article. It seems to imply that Pipeman was known to the club. Dunno what to think, but that's very interesting.

[Fisherman]

Yes, David, he was apparently a locally known man. Tom Wescott has him down as Le Grand, of course.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

AF

Hello David, Christer. Again, I can only hope that this story--and the Schwartz episode--are clarified in the AF article.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Fish, what bothers me is the apparent confirmation that Pipeman ran after Schwartz, who theatrically managed to escape.

[mariab]

Hi Fish, thanks for posting the Scotsman article. It seems to imply that Pipeman was known to the club. Dunno what to think, but that's very interesting.

Working on this David, might even have results. Please recall that Pipeman's physical description matches a recently discussed suspect who was a prominent member of the WVC and who stepped in big time into the Stride investigation. The WVC had once approached the IWEC to use their rooms for meetings (this is evidenced by a newspaper report). The people in question certainly had known each other, might have even been experiencing conflicts with each other.

what bothers me is the apparent confirmation that Pipeman ran after Schwartz, who theatrically managed to escape.

"Confirmation" or "fabrication"?

[DVV]

Hi my dear

Working on this David, might even have results. Please recall that Pipeman's physical description matches a recently discussed suspect who was a prominent member of the WVC and who stepped in big time into the Stride investigation. The WVC had once approached the IWEC to use their rooms for meetings (this is evidenced by a newspaper report). The people in question certainly had known each other, might have even been experiencing conflicts with each other.

Sounds interesting. I'll follow that.

"Confirmation" or "fabrication"?

My "apparent confirmation" wasn't that bad, then. I reserve my arguments against "fabrication", my dear.

[mariab]

"My dear"? T'as l'air un peu Brit, là.

[Hunter]

The question should be, in regards to Israel Schwartz, why did Wynne Baxter, who prided himself on being thorough in his inquests and presenting every bit of information available - sometimes, even, at the chagrin of the police- not call Mr. Schwartz to testify at the Stride inquest? He would have been the most critical witness, by far.

So, what happened?

[lynn cates]

I 'ave me doubts.

Hello Cris. Precisely.

What do you make of the papers beginning to express doubt about his story?

Cheers.
LC