How about this quick theory!

[Garza]

A time of death at 00.51 is a mere supposition, and we can't rule the interruption by Diemschitz AT ALL, as it's the most logical explanation. My suspicion is that Dr. Blackwell might have estimated Stride's time of death at half an hour before he personally arrived at the scene, at 1.16 a.m.. In my opinion, had he arrived at the scene 10'min. later, he might have conveniently estimated Stride's time of death from 00:56 to 01:06.

Looking at the witness statements and their timings. There is only two narrow windows of oppurtunity for Stride's murder.

1) 12.40-45am
2) 12.55am-1am

I am inclined to number 2.

Personally I think he heard Diemschitz's cart from a distance and stopped, but gambled it on going past Dutfields yard and stayed hiding in the shadows til in past. The cart probably took a minute to get down Berner Street.

So the window closes to 12.55-12.59am (IF Diemschitz arrives at 1am exactly)

It is worth noting that PC Smith stops at the Fairnclough St and Berner St junction at around 12.55 (give or take a few minutes) for a minute and sees nothing.

[mariab]

Anyone think that the BS man was Morris Eagle? He fits the description of BS man, and the sketch of him does show he had broad shoulders. He leaves his sweetheart home after meeting, comes back sees a prostitute offering services outside the club in the yard, tries to get rid of her, obviously doesn't.Regarding the Lipski comment, although Morris Eagle was a jew, to be a member of the IWEC, you had to forsake religion and that these jewish socialists regarding the traditional jews as traitors. He did chair a meeting saying why all jews need to be socialists after all and I do believe Schwartz had a "traditional" jewish appearance?

Yes, some of us are open to the idea that BS might have been an IWEC member, plausibly Morris Eagle. Rob Clack assumes this too. As for Schwartz having a traditional Jewish appearance, he might have had, if the “Lipski“ part of the story is true. Perhaps the “theatrical appearance“ quote referred to his “Jewishness“?

That is if Schwartz's story is true, but I have my doubts.

I have my doubts too, and I'm researching a Schwartz Hungarian/Polish anarchist orator with poor English capabilities acquainted with William Wess in 1902-1905.

Dr Blackwell estimated the time of death at between 12:46 and 12:56am. Even if we accept the upper estimate, the killer cannot have been disturbed by Diemschutz’s 1:00am arrival. Not, at any rate, if he killed Stride with the intention of eviscerating her. And remember, the times of death were always estimated with an inbuilt latitude.Thus we may restate Stride’s time of death as 12:51am, plus or minus five minutes. When viewed in this way, the disturbance hypothesis is even more unlikely, particularly when consideration is accorded to the speed with which Jack the Ripper normally subdued, killed and mutilated his victims.

Even if we can rule out Jack being disturbed by Diemschutz

We cannot use the medical evidence to rule out interruption. Let's not get caught up in that as it's a circular argument.

A time of death at 00.51 is a mere supposition, and we can't rule the interruption by Diemschitz AT ALL, as it's the most logical explanation. My suspicion is that Dr. Blackwell might have estimated Stride's time of death at half an hour before he personally arrived at the scene, at 1.16 a.m.. In my opinion, had he arrived at the scene 10'min. later, he might have conveniently estimated Stride's time of death from 00:56 to 01:06.

I agree with you regarding the Star being one of the most leftist papers, often agitating the police, but they would cooperate with the police as well, and enjoyed one of the (if not the) best circulations in the East End (Liz Stride had a copy of the Star in her bonnet when she died), so that's precisely where I would expect to find a news item placed by the police - complete with a physical description of Schwartz, so Pipeman would recognize him, and the role of Pipeman turned around so he woud feel both comfortable that he was not a suspect, but an urgency to explain he didn't have a knife. Again, I'm not married to the idea, but the police did do this stuff, it would have been a sensible thing to do, and it would make sense of the discrepancies, which all seem to be aimed at Pipeman. {...} Knifeman rushed towards BS Man and Stride.

Fascinating about Stride having had a copy of the Star in her bonnet. Might I inquire about your source on this?
Is your suspicion of a Star-police collaboration a new idea, or has Paul Begg entertained this as well? He's the one who used to think that Pipeman was identified by the police. (Which obviously isn't correct.)
By the by, I'm not endorsing the idea that JTR might have chosen not to mutilate Stride in a concrete intention to kill two victims on that night. (Chosing not to mutilate the first body so as to not get splashed with blood, in his intention to approach a second victim.) The intention of not mutilating one victim strongly contrasts against the MO “progression“ in the C5.

[Wickerman]

The problem, Jon, is that all of the known Ripper victims were subjected to manual strangulation before being laid in a supine position. There is no evidence that either of them ‘fell to the ground’ – no lateral mud stains or scalp injuries, for example. It would seem overwhelmingly probable, therefore, that the outdoor victims were immobilized by partial strangulation and then lowered to the ground. And yet Stride was found lying on her side and with no indication of strangulation.....

I understand that, Jon, and I’m not attempting to sway you one way or the other. I’m merely pointing out that the evidence is inconsistent with Stride having been a Ripper victim. It is up to the individual to interpret those inconsistencies and draw their own conclusions.

Almost like listening to myself years ago.
Yes, I do not disagree with you, Stride's murder is out of context with the rest of the known Ripper killings. And the actions of BS-man being too careless about the presence of witnesses. Conducting an assault like a common street-bully, and seen to attempt to pull Stride into the street, which must be regarded as inconsistent with the killer who appears to operate in the shadows.

The principal difference to my mind is that years ago I assumed like many that BS-man was most likely her killer, short of any other viable suspect. And, he did not act like we might expect him to, therefore, Stride was not a Ripper victim.
I would class the murder of Stride in the same class as that of Coles.

Today, I'm not so sure that lightning didn't strike twice for this unlucky soul.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

We cannot use the medical evidence to rule out interruption. Let's not get caught up in that as it's a circular argument.

Wicker Man,

I agree with you regarding the Star being one of the most leftist papers, often agitating the police, but they would cooperate with the police as well, and enjoyed one of the (if not the) best circulations in the East End (Liz Stride had a copy of the Star in her bonnet when she died), so that's precisely where I would expect to find a news item placed by the police - complete with a physical description of Schwartz, so Pipeman would recognize him, and the role of Pipeman turned around so he woud feel both comfortable that he was not a suspect, but an urgency to explain he didn't have a knife. Again, I'm not married to the idea, but the police did do this stuff, it would have been a sensible thing to do, and it would make sense of the discrepancies, which all seem to be aimed at Pipeman.

Hunter

Knifeman rushed towards BS Man and Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Even if we can rule out Jack being disturbed by Diemschutz, we can't rule out Jack possibly falling victim to plain old paranoia and deciding this is not a good place to be and deciding the best course of action is to seek greener pastures.

c.d.

[Garry Wroe]

Comments were offered that some of the bodies appeared as if they had been laid out. As we have no idea how any of his victims initially fell to the ground, we might assume the first act was to turn them on their back in preparation for the second act..?

The problem, Jon, is that all of the known Ripper victims were subjected to manual strangulation before being laid in a supine position. There is no evidence that either of them ‘fell to the ground’ – no lateral mud stains or scalp injuries, for example. It would seem overwhelmingly probable, therefore, that the outdoor victims were immobilized by partial strangulation and then lowered to the ground. And yet Stride was found lying on her side and with no indication of strangulation.

I'm not defending Stride as a Ripper victim. I did use to be quite convinced she was not, but recently I am more on the fence.

I understand that, Jon, and I’m not attempting to sway you one way or the other. I’m merely pointing out that the evidence is inconsistent with Stride having been a Ripper victim. It is up to the individual to interpret those inconsistencies and draw their own conclusions.

Quite Wickerman - during the killing phase the body would almost certainly often end up in an awkward position. For the mutilation phase, logically the body would be straightened first before he could carry on.

Logically, perhaps, Lechmere. But not evidentially.

Contemporary opinion seems to be that the Ripper was still in the yard and slipped out and away when Diemschutz went into the club. I see no compelling reason to doubt this as the most likely explanation.

Again, Lechmere, it’s about the evidence. Dr Blackwell estimated the time of death at between 12:46 and 12:56am. Even if we accept the upper estimate, the killer cannot have been disturbed by Diemschutz’s 1:00am arrival. Not, at any rate, if he killed Stride with the intention of eviscerating her. And remember, the times of death were always estimated with an inbuilt latitude. Thus we may restate Stride’s time of death as 12:51am, plus or minus five minutes. When viewed in this way, the disturbance hypothesis is even more unlikely, particularly when consideration is accorded to the speed with which Jack the Ripper normally subdued, killed and mutilated his victims.

[Garza]

Anyone think that the BS man was Morris Eagle? He fits the description of BS man, and the sketch of him does show he had broad shoulders.

He leaves his sweetheart home after meeting, comes back sees a prostitute offering services outside the club in the yard, tries to get rid of her, obviously doesn't.

Regarding the Lipski comment, although Morris Eagle was a jew, to be a member of the IWEC, you had to forsake religion and that these jewish socialists regarding the traditional jews as traitors. He did chair a meeting saying why all jews need to be socialists after all and I do believe Schwartz had a "traditional" jewish appearance?

That is if Schwartz's story is true, but I have my doubts.

[Garza]

Because of the enigmatic way the message is worded, you can also make an argument that it is actually Pro-Jewish -- "We Jews are sick and tired of being blamed for every damn thing that comes along."

c.d.

Oooo new Stride thread, may I partake.

Good point CD, I personally think that JTR went out of his way to blame jews for his murders on the double event night.

Stride/Eddowes both murdered near clubs frequented by jews. The Goulston Street message, the bloody apron being left in an Jewish area.

Did he hate Jews, or was he just trying to throw the police off track - if so, does that mean the police had interviewed him and it spooked him out? The police did talk to every butcher/horseslaughter in the East End didn't they?

[Stephen Thomas]

Because of the enigmatic way the message is worded, you can also make an argument that it is actually Pro-Jewish -- "We Jews are sick and tired of being blamed for every damn thing that comes along."

c.d.

Hey, you've got it c.d.

Most people can't get their heads around this pretty obvious fact.

[Wickerman]

Schwartz, at time, thought that the assailant was shouting to the man lighting his pipe across the road.

Hello, and welcome.
There are a number of threads which have taken issue with Swanson's wording. The original witness statement from Schwartz has not survived but Swanson paraphrased some of the statement in a police report.
Apparently Schwartz was in the process of crossing Berner St. from the west side (Dutfields Yard), to the east side (Board Sch.) when he noticed a man "on the opposite side".
Because of Swanson's wording and Schwartz's position "on crossing" the road, we have no real consensus on which side of the road Pipeman was on.
According to the police summary, he was on the west side as Pipeman, but the Star report places him on the east side, and now he's Knifeman.

Regards, Jon S.

[c.d.]

Because of the enigmatic way the message is worded, you can also make an argument that it is actually Pro-Jewish -- "We Jews are sick and tired of being blamed for every damn thing that comes along."

c.d.

[c.d.]

JTR also blamed a Jew for the death of Kelly, i'm sorry guys but isn't this obvious, because it is to me.

What are you referring to here?

c.d.

[Hunter]

I imagine the Star report was placed there by the police. The replacement of the pipe with a knife, and casting Knifeman in the role of hero (when surely any journalist would have reached the opposite conclusion) were designed to bring Pipeman forth to explain himself and hopefully get more insight into what happened. The ruse didn't work and we're left with an article that seemingly casts doubt on Schwartz's credibility, which is a shame, because the smaller details are probably all correct.

Hero?

A man chasing an innocent man down the street with a knife is a hero?

[c.d.]

Hello Malcom,

We are in agreement thinking that the BS man was just a drunk punter who did his thing for a minute or two but then went off into the night.

But I think you are making too much of the Jewish connection. I think it is a leap to say that because she was killed next to someplace that had a Jewish connection that there had to be a Jewish connection. Also, the graffito says nothing about murder. It could refer to some local disagreement of which we know nothing about.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Schwartz followed BS who stopped and talked to her, Pipeman was further on at the road junction, so i doubt these two were a team.

It's the action of BS-man attempting to pull Stride along with him, like "I'm sick of you being on the game, you're coming with me".
As always, we have contradictions, the Star tells us he pushed her back into the yard, while the police report suggests he tried to pull her along with him into the street.
Given the Star's reputation it is perhaps prudent to go with the police version, which suggests BS-man was attempting to take her away from the yard, but alas, nothing is certain.

Regards, Jon S.