The cut in the throat

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Well, this does add up better than most. But I'm wondering if, on your view, AK, in the midst of an episode, is actively seeking out another victim, or merely runs into Kate? He seems almost organised in your scenario and, if I properly understand the AK view, he is thought to be hebephrenic and hence disorganised.

Cheers.
LC

Well its an interesting question..

But I also investigated the case of Sally Anne Bowman, that had some similarities.

Pirate

[lynn cates]

organisation

Hello Jeff. Well, this does add up better than most. But I'm wondering if, on your view, AK, in the midst of an episode, is actively seeking out another victim, or merely runs into Kate? He seems almost organised in your scenario and, if I properly understand the AK view, he is thought to be hebephrenic and hence disorganised.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Or simply Trevor, BSM was in a 'Psychotic Episode' he cut Strides throat without any reason what so ever, apart from the voices of course...

Having killed her he thought better about having been seen, by Schwartz..

and Walked calmly back past Fanny Mortimers door..

reaching Commercial road and turning left at approx 12:49:30 am

and heading for Mitre sq, where BSM was seen by Lawende

All adds up doesnt it?

Pirate

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor,

I agree with your conclusion regarding statistics (no matter how well they are presented). You are right that coicidences do happen and Jack either killed Stride or he didn't. Statistics can't change that.

I disagree however with you equating Jack with a burglar. A burglar might have a desire for money but I don't think that they are so controlled by that desire so that it overrides common sense and the fear of being caught. A serial killer is a completely different animal.

You say that Jack fulfilled his desire by killing Stride but we don't know if that is the case. If the killing was simply a means to an end with mutilation being the end, then no, he was not fulfilled and pursuing another victim while his blood lust was up would seem reasonable even with its inherent risks.

c.d.

A burglar goes out to break into a house, a killer goes out to kill where is the difference.

I would suggest his blood lust was far from up, quite the contary more like his fear factor and wanting to get as far away as possible in the quickest time.

If no one saw the killer come out of the yard and he was disturbed where could he have gone. Scrambled away over fences and gardens at the rear of the yard, if that be the case again who knows who he might have come across doing that. In a hurry to get away no one deoes that quietly. Or could he have calmly walked into the Club through the back door and mingled with the members.

It seems as if in your replies you are trying to justify your beleif that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same hand

I mentioned previous that if he killed Nicholls and Edowwes where was the ferocity in Stride.

He had time to cut the throat of Stride, how much longer would it have taken him to inflict a few more abdominal wounds with the knife, only a few seconds, By the time he had Stride where he wanted her he would have been fully fired up

[Garza]

Hello Trevor,

I agree with your conclusion regarding statistics (no matter how well they are presented). You are right that coicidences do happen and Jack either killed Stride or he didn't. Statistics can't change that.

I agree c.d. that coincidences do happen, but the point of statistics is to work out how LIKELY/UNLIKELY coincidences are, given the data presented.

[Garza]

I think one should look at things through the killers perspective. If for example JTR had killed Stride. In the absence of any mutilations the perception is that he was disturbed. Taking that onboard he would want to get away from the area as soon as possible and in doing so would as likely as not either gone to ground just in case he thought he may have been seen leaving the scene of the crime and a decscription of him given to the police. Or alternatively made his way as far away from Whitechapel as he could as quick as he could.

Trevor, it has been well documented that some serial killers will hunt for a 2nd victim that night, especially if the 1st one was botched. Ted Bundy at the top of my head.

Its the same principle if you take a modern day night burglar if he get disturbed breaking into a house in the dead of night he runs off distancing himself from the scene of the crime and then blending into the night. Or he goes to ground in someones back garden and then comes out later when he thinks the coast is clear. He is not going to risk breaking into another house in the same area. They are possessed with fear. A fear of being caught.

Apples and Oranges. The mind of a serial killer is different to that of a thief I am sure you agree?

Miter Square is hardly as far away as possible and to get there he would have run the risk of bumping into a policeman. I would imagine the last thing on the killers mind would be seeking out another victim. After all he had fulfilled his desire in killing stride if she was a ripper victim, and i belive she wasnt

As far as figures are concerned they can be interpreted in whatever way you want to interpret them. Coincidences do happen so it is unwise to rule the fact out that on that night coincodentally there were 2 different killers.

Lets look at these conincidences:

Both prostitutes
Both murdered in a dark corner
Both have their throats slit from left to right once
Both have their throats slit on the ground on near enough to the ground to aovid blood spurting on clothing or the surrounding area
Both killed in silence with little/no struggle
Both scenes lack a murder weapon or any clues
Both victims had objects in their hand or around their hands
Both scenes high risk
Both killed within the same hour
Both killed within the same mile
Both killed near jewish social clubs

All these coupled with the statistical facts that female throat slitting was rare order even in a place like Whitechapel dictates the likelyhood of two killers decreases.

The only verifiable difference is that Liz Stride had no abdominal mutilations. That is the only difference.

Of course their is a SLIM POSSIBILITY that there were two different killers, but the vast likelyhood is that they were done by the same killer.

Think honestly, if Liz Stride had a few slashes in her abdomen like Nichols, would we honestly be having this conversation?

[sleekviper]

If he planned to kill two, he may have done exactly as what happened; kill the first with minimal damage, and destroy the second with the time allowed.

[c.d.]

Hello Trevor,

I agree with your conclusion regarding statistics (no matter how well they are presented). You are right that coicidences do happen and Jack either killed Stride or he didn't. Statistics can't change that.

I disagree however with you equating Jack with a burglar. A burglar might have a desire for money but I don't think that they are so controlled by that desire so that it overrides common sense and the fear of being caught. A serial killer is a completely different animal.

You say that Jack fulfilled his desire by killing Stride but we don't know if that is the case. If the killing was simply a means to an end with mutilation being the end, then no, he was not fulfilled and pursuing another victim while his blood lust was up would seem reasonable even with its inherent risks.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Excellent post Colin, only 15 female deaths by cut throat in 1888 IN THE WHOLE OF ENGLAND. Clearly a rare crime. Hardly the usually weekly occurance in Whitechapel that some envisage.

I think one should look at things through the killers perspective. If for example JTR had killed Stride. In the absence of any mutilations the perception is that he was disturbed. Taking that onboard he would want to get away from the area as soon as possible and in doing so would as likely as not either gone to ground just in case he thought he may have been seen leaving the scene of the crime and a decscription of him given to the police. Or alternatively made his way as far away from Whitechapel as he could as quick as he could.

Its the same principle if you take a modern day night burglar if he get disturbed breaking into a house in the dead of night he runs off distancing himself from the scene of the crime and then blending into the night. Or he goes to ground in someones back garden and then comes out later when he thinks the coast is clear. He is not going to risk breaking into another house in the same area. They are possessed with fear. A fear of being caught.

Miter Square is hardly as far away as possible and to get there he would have run the risk of bumping into a policeman. I would imagine the last thing on the killers mind would be seeking out another victim. After all he had fulfilled his desire in killing stride if she was a ripper victim, and i belive she wasnt

As far as figures are concerned they can be interpreted in whatever way you want to interpret them. Coincidences do happen so it is unwise to rule the fact out that on that night coincodentally there were 2 different killers.

[Garza]

Excellent post Colin, only 15 female deaths by cut throat in 1888 IN THE WHOLE OF ENGLAND. Clearly a rare crime. Hardly the usually weekly occurance in Whitechapel that some envisage.

[Colin Roberts]

In Accordance with the Forty-Ninth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Male & Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder': 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)


Registered Deaths of Male & Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Purple) / Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Lavender): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)


Registered Deaths of Male & Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Purple) & Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Lavender): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

I am not here to discuss whether Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were felled by the same hand.

I will, however, state for the record that I am inclined to believe that they were.

In fact, the most objective posture that I am able to assume, in this particular instance, inclines me toward the perception of something on the order of a 2/3 (i.e. 66.67%) probability that they were.

Additionally, the most subjective posture that I will allow myself to assume, in this particular instance, inclines me toward the perception of something on the order of a 3/4 (i.e. 75.00%) probability that they were.

I will, also, state for the record that there was a time when I was inclined to believe that they were not. So, please, think twice, before suggesting that I am mired in some sort of archaic 'Ripperological' convention.

I am not!

In fact, I would contend that my viewpoint, at that time, - i.e. that Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were not felled by the same hand - was distorted by my perception of the Emperor's dashing new outfit.

I will now, yet again, excuse myself from this thread.

Please, carry on!

[Colin Roberts]

In Accordance with the Forty-Ninth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder': 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Red) / Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Pink): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Red) & Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Pink): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

[Colin Roberts]

I believe that I have fully stated my case.

I will now excuse myself from this thread.

I shall return, - temporarily - so that I may address a relevant issue.

I would add that most domestics are solved because there is a clear motive that usually leads police back to the culprit; even if the killer didn't turn himself in as Brown did. We seem to forget what sets the so-called Whitechapel murders apart from the other violence that happened. They were unique, even for the East End. No apparent motive; rhyme or reason. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find any comparitive murders of prostitutes in London anywhere near the level that was experienced at that time, either in the immediate years before or after this series took place.

It may have been an odd coincidence that 3 women had their throats cut on the same night in the same city, but it is one hell of a coincidence that 2 prostitutes had their throats cut within an hour and in short walking distance of each other.

You have to accept that in Victorian times the cutting of the throat was the accepted method of sending people to the after life. So its not a unique method applicable to the Whitechapel victims.

Nowadays more murders are committed by people getting stabbed than having their throats cut, its quicker,simpler,easy and less messy.

"You have to accept that in Victorian times the cutting of the throat was the accepted method of sending people to the after life."

In Accordance with the Forty-Ninth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Male Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder': 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)


Registered Deaths of Male Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Blue) / Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Baby Blue): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)


Registered Deaths of Male Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Blue) & Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Baby Blue): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

[lynn cates]

hit

Hello Cd, Fish. If you put your last 2 posts together, I think you can see why I long ago ruled out BOTH the domestic scenario AND the sexual serial killer.

What does that leave? Perhaps a hit?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

CD: "That ferocity seems to have come and gone pretty damn fast."

... the way it often does in close relationships, CD - once you have lashed out and hurt your partner, the red rage subsides and you immediately regret what you did. Only the habitual beaters and sadists who take a joy in it keep beating. The first-timers may well do it only once - and never more.

See you out there, CD!

The best,
Fisherman