The cut in the throat

[caz]

I think one should look at things through the killers perspective. If for example JTR had killed Stride. In the absence of any mutilations the perception is that he was disturbed. Taking that onboard he would want to get away from the area as soon as possible and in doing so would as likely as not either gone to ground just in case he thought he may have been seen leaving the scene of the crime and a decscription of him given to the police. Or alternatively made his way as far away from Whitechapel as he could as quick as he could.

Its the same principle if you take a modern day night burglar if he get disturbed breaking into a house in the dead of night he runs off distancing himself from the scene of the crime and then blending into the night. Or he goes to ground in someones back garden and then comes out later when he thinks the coast is clear. He is not going to risk breaking into another house in the same area. They are possessed with fear. A fear of being caught.

Miter Square is hardly as far away as possible and to get there he would have run the risk of bumping into a policeman. I would imagine the last thing on the killers mind would be seeking out another victim.

Unbelievable.

Trevor, old chap, you quoted and responded to my last post on the subject but you clearly didn't bother clicking on my link to the genuine West Croydon double eventer, or you would have come face to face with a case that completely trashes your argument here! In West Croydon the killer even left his first victim alive to tell the tale and describe him, along with the witnesses who chased him off, yet he hung around the same streets for the next few hours, and was caught on cctv trawling the main London Road before finding a second victim on whom to take out his considerable frustration.

I believe that the man who ripped Eddowes, like a pig in the market, was a man on a mission, like the one in West Croydon who set about Corinne Bailey's head with a lump of wood.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

You are probabaly right we woulndt be having this conversation, the point is that the killer did have time to inflict slashes or mutilations to the abdomen as previoulsy stated it only would have taken a matter of seconds.

In the murders of Chapman, Nicholls and Eddowes the level of violence used was intense. That was absent in the Stride murder. That level of violence shows how fired up this killer was in those murders. if it were the same killer where was that level of violence or the ferocity as shown in the rest.

The cut to the throat was different to the rest. In the other murders the force used to cut their throats was enought to almost decapitate them.

The knife used was different. You can cut someomes throat with a small sharp knife but you would struggle to be able to decapiate them.

Cutting a throat in Victorian times was the main accepted method of dispensing with people wether they be male or female. Unlike today when more deaths occur from direct stabbing as against throat cutting.

I disagree about whats in the mind of a burglar and a serial killer neither want to get caught so they both try to avoid that. If they are both disturbed they will both consider what options open to them to avoid being caught wether that be to run/walk and take a chance or to hide till the coast is clear.

Hi Trevor

The cut to the throat was different to the rest. In the other murders the force used to cut their throats was enought to almost decapitate them

Perhaps because unlike the other victims, Stride was not prone and/or already unconscious/dead when the Killer tried to cut her throat but was awake and struggling with her killer.

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks for that information Colin

Most useful and informative

Pirate

[Colin Roberts]

You have to accept that in Victorian times the cutting of the throat was the accepted method of sending people to the after life.

I invited myself into this discussion, yesterday, solely for the purpose of addressing this most erroneous assertion, with the following:

In Accordance with the Forty-Ninth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Male Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Blue) & Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Baby Blue): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

In Accordance with the Forty-Ninth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Red) & Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Pink): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

In Accordance with the Forty-Ninth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Male & Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder'; Exclusive of Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Purple) & Those, which were by way of 'Cut Throat' (Lavender): 1886-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

I was then told ...

As far as figures are concerned they can be interpreted in whatever way you want to interpret them. Coincidences do happen so it is unwise to rule the fact out that on that night coincodentally there were 2 different killers.

So, I suppose that the "figures" can be interpreted to mean that ... "in Victorian times the cutting of the throat was the accepted method of sending people to the after life". (My Emphasis)

That must, indeed, be the case; for today, we see that ...

Cutting a throat in Victorian times was the main accepted method of dispensing with people wether they be male or female.

As for this portion of yesterday's response:

Coincidences do happen so it is unwise to rule the fact out that on that night coincodentally there were 2 different killers.

I challenge you to locate a single instance, in which I have even come close to 'ruling out' the possibility - that's possibility, as opposed to "fact", as stated yesterday, by yourself - of a 'Double Event', involving two separate perpetrators.

Hello Trevor,

I agree with your conclusion regarding statistics.

Do you agree with his assertion ...

As far as figures are concerned they can be interpreted in whatever way you want to interpret them.

???

Do you agree that ...

Cutting a throat in Victorian times was the main accepted method of dispensing with people wether they be male or female.

???

You are right that coicidences do happen and Jack either killed Stride or he didn't. Statistics can't change that.

Most especially, when the person presenting those statistics has not even hinted, in any way, shape, or form, that they could!

~~~

Garza,

You might be interested in other statistical presentations that I have made, within this thread.

Scroll back to Page 9, Post 86.

The following 'Quote Prompt' (white arrow) should take there.

Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder', by way of ...

~~~

Now;

I would really like to get out of here.

I have no interest, whatsoever, in discussing whether Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were murdered by the same perpetrator.

I have stated, for the record, that I tend to believe that they were.

But, that is not my purpose, in being here!

My sole purpose, in being here, - i.e. in this thread - is the intended riddance of the notion that 'Cut Throat' murders of vagrant dolly-mops were commonplace, in London's inner 'East End', in 1888.

They weren't! Period!

Most especially, those that involved uninhibited slaughter, to which there were no known witnesses, for which there was no apparent 'rational' motive, and, in which there was no attempt to conceal corpus delicti.

The use of this cockeyed notion, as a 'spin' tactic, by those that are determined to convince us all that Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were not murdered, by the same perpetrator, must stop.

It is plainly and simply a falsity; and, historically speaking, it is grossly inaccurate.

I shall, now - for the third time, excuse myself from this thread.

As I do not wish to be involved in a 'Double Event' debate, I shall not be returning; unless, as was the case, just yesterday, my statistical analysis is misrepresented, by posters that either don't bother to read it, or simply don't understand it.

[Garza]

I would also like to say that Stride's throat cut was not a scratch like it sometimes protrayed to be. In fact it came within less than a centimetre in scraping the vertebrate.

[Garza]

You are probabaly right we woulndt be having this conversation, the point is that the killer did have time to inflict slashes or mutilations to the abdomen as previoulsy stated it only would have taken a matter of seconds.

So you agree that the murder of Stride was so similar to the others that if she had mutilations, she would be a Ripper cert.

You can't possible say he had time for mutilations, because we don't know when/how he was interrupted (if the killer was JTR), he could have just finished laying her on the ground and some drunk bungled out of his house in Dutfields Yard to use the loo and spooked him and quickly dispatched Stride with a throat cut and fled, we don't know.

In the murders of Chapman, Nicholls and Eddowes the level of violence used was intense. That was absent in the Stride murder. That level of violence shows how fired up this killer was in those murders. if it were the same killer where was that level of violence or the ferocity as shown in the rest.

Your definition of intense violence seem to be abdominial mutilations. I disagree however. Tabram was intense violence and frenzied. All the others seem cold and methodical. He took care to render them unconcious, lay them down, point the major artery away from him, cut the neck (once or twice) to kill them, then proceeded with mutilations. Very methodical.

Instead look how stride was killed. No sound, she was layed down on the ground before her throat was cut (not very many usual throat-cutters would do that, may I add).

The cut to the throat was different to the rest. In the other murders the force used to cut their throats was enought to almost decapitate them.

All the cuts to the throat in each of the victims was different in some way. JTR's signature was not the throat cut but in the mutilations. There are also valid theories why Stride's throat cut wasn't as deep, from the hurried dispatch to the angle of the body. Strides neck was cut while on the ground, despite no external injuries like a blow to the head or a struggle - no-one can ignore this. All together there are far more similarities than differences between Stride and the others to just cast off Stride as random murder with whimsy.

The knife used was different. You can cut someomes throat with a small sharp knife but you would struggle to be able to decapiate them.

No, the knife used was not different. Trevor you have been shown this time and time again by Tom Wescott, I'm not going to show you another time.

Cutting a throat in Victorian times was the main accepted method of dispensing with people wether they be male or female. Unlike today when more deaths occur from direct stabbing as against throat cutting.

Any evidence for this claim? Just wondering, because you haven't presented any. I have seen excellent statistics from Colin Roberts how rare throat-slitting was pretty rare though.

I disagree about whats in the mind of a burglar and a serial killer neither want to get caught so they both try to avoid that. If they are both disturbed they will both consider what options open to them to avoid being caught wether that be to run/walk and take a chance or to hide till the coast is clear.

Will you admit that it has been recorded and documented that some serial killers when having their first attack botched in some way will immediately hunt for a second victim?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, it has been well documented that some serial killers will hunt for a 2nd victim that night, especially if the 1st one was botched. Ted Bundy at the top of my head.


Apples and Oranges. The mind of a serial killer is different to that of a thief I am sure you agree?



Lets look at these conincidences:

Both prostitutes
Both murdered in a dark corner
Both have their throats slit from left to right once
Both have their throats slit on the ground on near enough to the ground to aovid blood spurting on clothing or the surrounding area
Both killed in silence with little/no struggle
Both scenes lack a murder weapon or any clues
Both victims had objects in their hand or around their hands
Both scenes high risk
Both killed within the same hour
Both killed within the same mile
Both killed near jewish social clubs

All these coupled with the statistical facts that female throat slitting was rare order even in a place like Whitechapel dictates the likelyhood of two killers decreases.

The only verifiable difference is that Liz Stride had no abdominal mutilations. That is the only difference.

Of course their is a SLIM POSSIBILITY that there were two different killers, but the vast likelyhood is that they were done by the same killer.

Think honestly, if Liz Stride had a few slashes in her abdomen like Nichols, would we honestly be having this conversation?

You are probabaly right we woulndt be having this conversation, the point is that the killer did have time to inflict slashes or mutilations to the abdomen as previoulsy stated it only would have taken a matter of seconds.

In the murders of Chapman, Nicholls and Eddowes the level of violence used was intense. That was absent in the Stride murder. That level of violence shows how fired up this killer was in those murders. if it were the same killer where was that level of violence or the ferocity as shown in the rest.

The cut to the throat was different to the rest. In the other murders the force used to cut their throats was enought to almost decapitate them.

The knife used was different. You can cut someomes throat with a small sharp knife but you would struggle to be able to decapiate them.

Cutting a throat in Victorian times was the main accepted method of dispensing with people wether they be male or female. Unlike today when more deaths occur from direct stabbing as against throat cutting.

I disagree about whats in the mind of a burglar and a serial killer neither want to get caught so they both try to avoid that. If they are both disturbed they will both consider what options open to them to avoid being caught wether that be to run/walk and take a chance or to hide till the coast is clear.

[harry]

Gorden Cummings was another who killed and mutilated.Many similarities to Jack the Ripper.Attacked two women the same night.His murders were four in one week.Thought to have killed two more a year previous.Lived in circumstances,with other servicemen,that made it difficult to leave or enter without it being knownOn the night of the two attacks,he was interupted at the first attempt,but went on to attack another victim.So Stride being one of two victims the same night,is not hard to accept.

[Tom_Wescott]

I was thinking about posting here, but Garza seems to be making perfect sense, and I wouldn't want to muddle it up!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

I suppose the psychotic episode was not schizophrenic then? Very well.

Was he organised or was it more of a disorganised frenzy?

Cheers.
LC

I think I was fairly clear...

"psychotic episode' induced by drugs

Pirate

[lynn cates]

organised/disorganised

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

I suppose the psychotic episode was not schizophrenic then? Very well.

Was he organised or was it more of a disorganised frenzy?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Any scenario will do because no one knows. But the facts surrounding the murders do give us many clues.

Yes , i would agree..

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. And your verdict on Bowman?

Cheers.
LC

She was murderer by a man in 'Psychotic episode' bought on by over indulgence in the use of modern 'Grass' or 'canabis' and to much 'cocaine'

The interesting piont of the case is two attacks in the same night, not far from each other and similar distance

Pirate

[Trevor Marriott]

Or simply Trevor, BSM was in a 'Psychotic Episode' he cut Strides throat without any reason what so ever, apart from the voices of course...

Having killed her he thought better about having been seen, by Schwartz..

and Walked calmly back past Fanny Mortimers door..

reaching Commercial road and turning left at approx 12:49:30 am

and heading for Mitre sq, where BSM was seen by Lawende

All adds up doesnt it?

Pirate

Any scenario will do because no one knows. But the facts surrounding the murders do give us many clues.

[lynn cates]

verdict

Hello Jeff. And your verdict on Bowman?

Cheers.
LC