The cut in the throat

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Although many on Casebook, do not consider Stride to have been a victim of JTR, many still do.
The following had convinced me to alter my opinion, which was that she was a victim , and infact there was a double event, to that she was not.
Evening news 1st october 1888.
Quote.. THe cut in the throat is not exactly as been described by our morning comtemporaries, it is not from ear to ear, the knife seems to have been stabbed in deeply at the left side to reach the external carotid, and to have emerged at the carotid on the right side.
It has been said that the two murders were not by the same hand ie Stride/Eddowes, Dr Philips gives it as his opinion as also Dr Gordon who did a post mortem examination on Eddowes.
Dr Philips is an authority as it was he who examined Annie Chapman.
My question is therefore given that the wound was different [ according to this report] and the description of the men seen with Stride, and the person seen with Eddowes are not apparently the same, should we eliminate Elizabeth Stride from Jacks total, even though it was still a ghastly murder in its own right.?
Regards Richard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

Thank you for this posting.
I have said for many years that I have grave doubts regarding Elizabeth Stride being a victim of the same hand as Catherine Eddowes. There are, in my honest opinion, far too many points that favour a different killer. This example being one of many of them.

I realise there are those who still maintain that the two murders were done by one person. Those people are indeed entitled to their opinion.
What I do find interesting in all of this, is the puzzle nobody can solve...

Namely if, for example, Aaron Kosminski was the man seen in Berner Street and was indeed the man who murdered Elizabeth Stride, then he cannot, simply on the basis of identification from witnesses, have been the man who murdered Catherine Eddowes. Likwise, had he been the man identified in Mitre Square, he cannot have been the same man identified in Berner Street.

That in itself, tells us that there must have been two killers that night.. and that rule only applies to Kosminski (who has never been sufficiently identified at any of the murder scenes).. so whoever one's favourite "Jack" is, the same rule applies. Add to that the descriptions seen in Dorset Street, and the conundrum deepens.. for those descriptions are nothing like either of the previous two.

I have said this before and I will say it again. It was certainly NOT in the interests of Home Secretary Henry Matthews nor indeed Assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson et al to publically admit to there being more than one killer in the area. The police were being pilloried left right and centre for not catching "the murderer".. what would the public and political ramifications have been if the authorities had admitted there being two, or even three murderers on the loose? To me it is obvious. It's a face saving, job saving, political decision to lump the lot together, and carry on letting the press purport the mystery of this assassin, whilst adding the help of giant police posters hanging outside police stations so that EVERYBODY got the same message... catch "Jack the Ripper". It contributed to stirring up even more panic in Whitechapel. Now why would anybody, especially the police, want that to happen? Protect and serve? Errr....

Have said it before, and will say it again. Sir Robert Anderson and Co. had very different fish to fry in the East End.. as well as the non too small matter of the Parnell Commission just around the corner hovering above his head.

That differing cut in the throat tells an awful lot more than was told at the time, methinks.

best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

plus ultra

Hello Richard. Excellent reasoning. But now, let's go further. Let's have a go at Kate.

1. Kate--1 cut to the throat.
Polly and Annie--2 cuts.

2. Kate--deep cut, nicked cartilage.
Polly and Annie--nicked bone, attempt at separation of head.

3. Kate--dress torn.
Polly and Annie--dress lifted for mutilation.

4. Kate--"unskillful mutilation."
Polly and Annie--"skillful mutilation."

5. Kate--knife wounds moving upwards.
Polly and Annie--knife wounds moving downwards.

6. Kate--facial mutilation.
Polly and Annie--no facial mutilation.

7. Suggestion by coroner that Kate's killer was an imitator.

Food for thought?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Richard. Excellent reasoning. But now, let's go further. Let's have a go at Kate.

1. Kate--1 cut to the throat.
Polly and Annie--2 cuts.

2. Kate--deep cut, nicked cartilage.
Polly and Annie--nicked bone, attempt at separation of head.

3. Kate--dress torn.
Polly and Annie--dress lifted for mutilation.

4. Kate--"unskillful mutilation."
Polly and Annie--"skillful mutilation."

5. Kate--knife wounds moving upwards.
Polly and Annie--knife wounds moving downwards.

6. Kate--facial mutilation.
Polly and Annie--no facial mutilation.

7. Suggestion by coroner that Kate's killer was an imitator.

Food for thought?

Cheers.
LC

Hello,
Very interesting thread.

I've discounted Stride as a JtR victim for sometime now, but am wondering about Martha Tabrum.

Lynn, I realize she was stabbed, but was it through her dress or was her dress lifted?

Do you know?

Thanks,

curious

[lynn cates]

answer

Hello Velma. For what little it is worth, the sketches show wounds in her dress. But, oddly, her legs were opened. Does that suggest that her dress was lifted for the lower abdominal cuts?

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hello Lynn,
It amazes me that these murders open up so much speculation, one can use that to possibly suggest that Jack the Ripper actually was resposible only for Nichols and Chapman, and that Stride received a vicious stab through the throat by a different killer, and Eddowes was a dress rehearsal for Mary Kelly.
We could speculate that a letter dated the 24th sept quoting.. ''I have found the woman I was after that is Chapman'' as being from the killer. of Nichols also, and intrestingly dated before the famous ''Dear Boss''.
As for the dress rehearsal.. one can speculate that as Eddowes had used the name kelly, which was the name Barnett used when moving into Millers court, [ according to McCarthy] and actually lived with a man named kelly herself [ John] that someone was closing in on his intended victim namely Mary jane Kelly aka Davis?.
So there we are three different killers, possibly 4 including the stabbing of Tabram.
The Whitechapel murders rewritten...
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

the devil you say

Hello Richard.

"It amazes me that these murders open up so much speculation, one can use that to possibly suggest that Jack the Ripper actually was respo[n]sible only for Nichols and Chapman"

Right. Or, better, "Leather Apron."

As for the rest, well, the devil is in the details.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Elizabeth Stride was not stabbed in the throat. I would suggest reading the inquest testimony instead of press reports for forensic information.

Actually, the method of dispatch was quite similar in both Eddowes and Stride, with the cut being somewhat deeper in Kate Eddowes' case.

These murders weren't committed in a laboratory with a controlled environment. Even if there was a single killer involved, each murder would still present its own particular circumstance and - as we know from the study of other such murderers - the killer's MO and signature can change.

There may have been more than one killer. We don't know who killed any of these women...but given the fact that this series was unprecedented; committed on the same class of women; in a very small area; in a very short timeframe... it would be logical to 'suspect' a single murderer at work here... although, certainly not conclusive. Known serial murderers such as Kemper, Bundy, etc... altered their method much more than what is evidenced in the Whitechapel Murders... and often, these monsters - upon apprehension - are found to have made previous unsuccessful attacks before their first kill... and ended up killing more people that originally suspected..

[richardnunweek]

Hi Hunter,
I am aware of the inquest report, however I mentioned that Evening News section because it was a 'Evening edition' , not the morning press, and as they made it clear that the wound to Strides throat was not as reported earlier, I Felt it worthy to bring it to attention.
It is however a written fact, that Dr Philips. and Dr Gordon , both shared the view that these two murders were not by the same hand.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

Hi Richard

Thanks for bringing this up, very interesting.

A couple of points:

The chances of Stride being the victim of another killer, within a short distance and a short space of time must have an explanation. What are the odds?

The difference in the throat cut doesn't necessarily imply another hand to my mind. I think expecting 'Jack' to have got it exactly the same on every occasion is a little unrealistic - because no two set of circumstances is the same; and an opportunistic killer like that takes a lot of chances with variables.

But I realise this is a highly contentious issue - that's just my take on it.

[lynn cates]

how odd

Hello Sally. Odds are difficult to calculate. What are the odds to the human genome arising? Yet here we are, pleasantly conversing with one another.

Cheers.
LC

[FrankO]

Hello Velma. For what little it is worth, the sketches show wounds in her dress. But, oddly, her legs were opened. Does that suggest that her dress was lifted for the lower abdominal cuts?

Hi Lynn, Velma,

According to both PC Watkins and Dr. Brown Eddowes' clothes were drawn up above the abdomen/her waist. From the official list of Eddowes' clothes and possessions it has always seemed to me that he cut her waistbands so that he could more easily lift her skirts.

All the best,
Frank

[Sally]

Yes but..

It isn't just the 'Double Event' is it? How to explain the murder spree of 1888 if we don't attribute it to a single killer who yet remains unidentified?

Several killers all decide to do in a couple of unfortunates at the same timeat by random? You want a theory to explain that one.

Or, of course, you could plump for conspiracy. It's by far the better option, statistically. It's a bit too cloak and dagger for me, though.

[lynn cates]

sketch

Hello Frank. My point was that her clothing was torn. It is not clear to what extent.

Of course, the sketch has extensive cutting through her dress.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

one size fits all

Hello Sally.

"How to explain the murder spree of 1888 if we don't attribute it to a single killer who yet remains unidentified? "

There were MANY killings in London, Whitechapel, in 1888. Are you suggesting one for ALL of them?

Cheers.
LC