The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[Chris]

We don't know if Blackwell said that to a Star reporter or not. It could have been embellished by the reporter.

Surely if Blackwell said to the reporter that anything had been "almost severed," it would have been the blood vessels, not her head - considering that the blood vessels (on one side) had been almost severed, and the head hadn't been anything like severed.

If only we could assume "a newspaper said it, so it must be true," how easy Ripper research would be!

[Hunter]

We don't know if Blackwell said that to a Star reporter or not. It could have been embellished by the reporter. During the Mylett case, The Star approached Dr. Phillips about his opinion on her death. Even though they virtually had the door slammed in their face, they still went on and published what they proclaimed as Dr. Phillips' opinion on the matter by inferring that they had a secondary source. In other words, the Star put words in Phillips' mouth anyway.

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate Jack/Mr. Leahy (if I may),
I just can't fathom that you are seriously taking the Star statement at face value as an accurate quote, i.e)

Thats probably because I am not.

I've simply pointed out that he gave a statement to the press and thats what he said.....

Where have I actually stated anything else? Or that I think that her head was falling off? I havent....and it largely depends how you interpret the word 'Almost' which is rather subjective.

But thats what he said. As apposed to: He never said that.

Why he choose to use those words is a matter of debate which I'm welcome to speculate on with you.

However all I'm saying is that's what the Star report says. Which it does.

It seems fairly cut and dry to me.

Pirate

PS No fab blue sky here today.

[mariab]

Pirate Jack/Mr. Leahy (if I may),
I just can't fathom that you are seriously taking the Star statement at face value as an accurate quote, i.e., that Dr. Blackwell really stated to the newspaper that Stride's head was almost severed from the body, when we have tons of evidence that Victorian newspapers got things mixed up most of the time. Just look at what the same Star printed pertaining to Schwartz allegedly chasing away Stride's killer on October 4. And even today, do you put faith in everything that the newspapers print?
By the by, even with my amateur medical knowledge I'm aware of the fact that it would be extremely difficult to severe Stride's head from her body simply with a knife, it would have required a machette/saw and better anatomic knowledge than the killer possessed (as exhibited by the evidence in the other murders).
PS.: I trust that the volcanic smoke cloud hasn't been causing problems in the UK, and that your boat hasn't drifted away. ;-)

[Jeff Leahy]

I am finding it difficult to remain polite here.

The quote was given in a report in The Star newspaper. To say that Blackwell did use those words presumes that the reporter and his report are accurate. However, it is irrelevant to this argument whether he did or not. In an initial approach by a pressman Blackwell may have said it, either for dramatic effect for the reporter or because he had not yet properly examined the body.

But, relevant to the context in which it was raised here, Blackwell's proper description of the neck wound was given under oath at the inquest and it did not amount to describing the head as being nearly severed (as was the case with Chapman).

Are you just being deliberately dense this morning?

I posted the Star report in response to this statement: Dr. Blackwell never stated that Stride's head was almost severed from the body.

Actually Blackwell DID say this in his statement to the Star: Her head was 'Almost' severed from her body.

As we are aware this statement is rather pushing the known facts. It was actually a large deep gash, but there could be all sorts of reasons for Blackwell saying what he did.....He'd had a long night.

However as he also gives the time of death at 20 minutes he must have been aware she bled to death slowly....but thats besides the point.

Blackwell said what he said.

I'll leave everyone else to figure out why but my guess is that it was a simple way of communicating the horror of what he found, while in the court room his language would have been in keeping with an inquest.

The reports for which I have also read believe it or not?

Pirate

[Stewart P Evans]

Difficult

Stewart my point was completely simple, someone suggested Blackwell didnt say 'her head was almost severed from her body'
HE DID
Whether you agree or disagree with that statement is another conversation all together..
Pirate

I am finding it difficult to remain polite here.

The quote was given in a report in The Star newspaper. To say that Blackwell did use those words presumes that the reporter and his report are accurate. However, it is irrelevant to this argument whether he did or not. In an initial approach by a pressman Blackwell may have said it, either for dramatic effect for the reporter or because he had not yet properly examined the body.

But, relevant to the context in which it was raised here, Blackwell's proper description of the neck wound was given under oath at the inquest and it did not amount to describing the head as being nearly severed (as was the case with Chapman).

[Jeff Leahy]

I didn't say that, I was citing what you had actually stated here.

The description of Stride's neck wound, given at the inquest by Blackwell, is nothing like 'nearly severed'. As you say it was a 'hefty gash', but at its deepest part it only severed the windpipe which is at the front of the neck. It failed to sever the blood vessels on one side of the neck (right) and only 'nearly severed' them on the other. I have seen a few cut throats in my time and, believe me, there is a big difference.

Stewart my point was completely simple, someone suggested Blackwell didnt say 'her head was almost severed from her body'

HE DID

Whether you agree or disagree with that statement is another conversation all together..

Pirate

[c.d.]

Question: What do you call the person who graduated last in their class from medical school?

Answer: Doctor

c.d.

[mariab]

OK C.D., so we're in agreement.

[c.d.]

You're thinking too modern and too American, C.D.. A Victorian doctor would not have been “disrespected“ by being “fraimed“ with questions or discredited in court. There is the possibility that higher officials might have applied pressure on a doctor behind the scenes, though. I trust you're familiar with the casebook thread about Dr. Bond.

That's my point, Maria. The doctors in this case never really got pressed and so their testimony has to be taken with a grain of salt.

c.d.

[Stewart P Evans]

Didn't say...

It was you that insinuated that I only gave credence to the Star. Which is as you know untrue.
Is It? Surely its a quest of interpretation of the word 'ALMOST'
Seems to me Dr Blackwell was describing a fairly hefty gash at the inquest. And one must presume that Dr Blackwell made this press statement before he had done a thorough examination of the corpse. So from his point of view, at that time, it might have been a logical statement and not necessarily exaggerated at all.
Pirate

I didn't say that, I was citing what you had actually stated here.

The description of Stride's neck wound, given at the inquest by Blackwell, is nothing like 'nearly severed'. As you say it was a 'hefty gash', but at its deepest part it only severed the windpipe which is at the front of the neck. It failed to sever the blood vessels on one side of the neck (right) and only 'nearly severed' them on the other. I have seen a few cut throats in my time and, believe me, there is a big difference.

[mariab]

But were they questioned with the intent of discrediting their testimony or raising doubts as to its weight like they would be in a criminal trial?

You're thinking too modern and too American, C.D.. A Victorian doctor would not have been “disrespected“ by being “fraimed“ with questions or discredited in court. There is the possibility that higher officials might have applied pressure on a doctor behind the scenes, though. I trust you're familiar with the casebook thread about Dr. Bond.

[Abby Normal]

Just thought I'd chime in here, and mention how the witnesses in the Stride and Eddowes murders- Schwartz and Lawende- both described a man of about 30 years old with fair hair and a moustache, from five-five to five-nine in height, wearing a dark coat and a peaked cap. Slight differences, sure, such as Lawende describing the coat as "salt and pepper" rather than just "dark." But all in all, the descriptions seem awfully similar. Add to that Elizabeth Long's description of the suspect in the Chapman killing- again fairly short at no more than five and a half feet tall, with a dark coat and deerstalker cap- and I tend to think we are looking at the outfit Jack the Ripper usually wore when doing his work in all three cases and that he was not a large man. For what it's worth. (Of course though, it could be argued that any number of men out and about in Whitechapel fit that description at any given time.)

Hi kensei
I beleive Lawende is the only witness who described the suspect with fair hair/mustache. of course there was Blotchy with his carrotty mustache but all others were described as dark or brown hair/mustache

[c.d.]

Evidence given at inquests was of the same quality, given under oath, as that given at trials, other than the fact that the coroner could allow hearsay at an inquest which would be inadmissable in a criminal trial. Inquest witnesses were questioned under oath the same as they would be in a criminal trial.

But were they questioned with the intent of discrediting their testimony or raising doubts as to its weight like they would be in a criminal trial?

c.d.

[mariab]

Evidence given at inquests was of the same quality, given under oath, as that given at trials, other than the fact that the coroner could allow hearsay at an inquest which would be inadmissable in a criminal trial. Inquest witnesses were questioned under oath the same as they would be in a criminal trial.

Was suspecting as much, but was not sure. Like C.D., I'm more familiar with the American way of conducting trials.
Thank you so much for the information, Mr. Evans.