The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael Kidney

He didn't kill Stride. There's no question about that. That book is shut. Who did? The weight of evidence points toward Charles "I paid people to lie to save my own butt" Le Grand, but that doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

SPE's obstinence in the face of PJ's cold logic...

I have to agree with Pirate Jack. Stewart Evans refuses to accept any press reports at all as viable, that's why The Lodger, The Man Who Hunted JTR, Letters From Hell, and Scotland Yard Investigates are not at all packed to the brim with new and exciting discoveries from the contemporary press. If Mr. Evans wasn't so rigid in his bias perhaps he would for once have something of interest to offer and, who knows, maybe even earn something of a reputation in this field. A true shame.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Well, c.d., I was checking on the testimony, having read this thread with great interest and found that Dr. Phillips talks about the cachous issue.

"The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell."

Given the great discussion over the matter, this shows that perhaps the violent action taken earlier caused Liz to lose some of her breath mints.

It was Blackwell who had disturbed and spilled the cashous before Phillips' arrival.

'Dr. Blackwell [recalled] (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I can confirm Dr. Phillips as to the appearances at the mortuary. I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.'

[lynn cates]

exploration

Hello Abby. Let's explore.

"BS man is JtR."

As you wish. I have no doubt but that IS and the lads at the IWMEC wished the BS story to imply 1. BS man killed Liz. 2. BS man was NOT Jewish.

"He wanted her in an alley way."

No harm here. Of course, neither Polly nor Annie were in an alley way, but I waive all that.

"She is reluctant, fearful of the ripper scare"

What ripper scare? There was no JTR and the Leather Apron business was winding down. All clear for 3 weeks.

". . . perhaps looking at this new guy as a potential boyfriend."

But beginning when? At an earlier part of that night? Is that why she found someone to keep her velvet piece and another to keep her hymnal? Very well. Let's say she was invited on a date and sees a potential new boyfriend.

"They play their little cat and mouse game over a period of time, walking around, him trying to seduce her into doing what he wants, buying her things, (cachous, flower etc.) she not wanting to go right into the alley."

But this won't do. If Liz is soliciting, you make your client happy, collect the fee, and you're off for verse 2. But perhaps she is walking up and down the street, gazing into his eyes and comparing his sensitivity to the former lout, Michael. But then coyness seems inappropriate here also. Strike while the iron's hot.

"In front of Dutfields yard she refuses again-he gets frustrated and leaves . . ."

Indeed. But if Liz, who began the evening with 6d is doing all this to earn 4d, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with her economic sense.

" . . . then quickly losing his temper turning back around (this is where IS arrives behind him) going back and assaults her. After scaring off IS he drags her into the yard and kills her, quickly leaving."

Notice that, if BS wishes to mutilate someone, he is going to almost as much trouble as Liz is in trying to earn 4d. If he is seen on multiple occasions with Liz, he runs a great danger in being identified. But now, he IS identified--if we accept the Schwartz story. After all, aren't there other women about who can be ripped?

On the other hand, if IS is lying . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Chadwick]

Hello Abby,

Well here is the problem. The more we describe what happened as an attack the more inconsistencies we come up with. If it was a vicious attack, Liz's reaction seems a bit strange. You would think that she would scream bloody murder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man man for help. Yet all we have is three small screams which could simply be indicative of surprise more than fear. The BS man is so incredibly angry that he does not care that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man and follows through with Liz's murder. If this is true, did Liz not pick up on it? Did she not realize how much danger she was in? That seems very strange and again you would think she would scream loudly and for help.

With regard to the cachous, if it was a vicious attack, how did they survive Liz roughly being thrown to the ground as they were simply wrapped in tissue paper? And if she is being dragged after being thrown to the ground, they have to survive that as well. Surely Liz must have known she was now fighting for her life at that point. Now nobody in the club heard any screams and if the BS man had his hand over her mouth she would need to get that hand away so she could scream. Trying to pull that hand away or trying to push herself would require an open hand not a fist and you would expect the cachous to be scattered as a result.

c.d.

Well, c.d., I was checking on the testimony, having read this thread with great interest and found that Dr. Phillips talks about the cachous issue.

"The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell."

Given the great discussion over the matter, this shows that perhaps the violent action taken earlier caused Liz to lose some of her breath mints.

As to the brusing and Phillips' comments regarding that, I have theory. What's known as postmortem bruising or bruising caused at or around the time of death, not visible at the time of death, but shows up around 24 hours after death. Dr. Phillips makes his comments about the body, which have had some controversy here.

"We removed the clothes. We found the body fairly nourished. Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since."

When looked at in context, it would seem that Phillips is referring to observing postmortem bruising "since" in other cadavers.

As to the dragging idea, no one remarks on mud being on her clothing nor scuffing of the backs of her shoes, which would have been indications of her being dragged into the yard. Rather, Phillps notes that mud has been splattered on her face, caked in her hair and left side of her head.

She bled out slowly, Phillips says. Exsanguination was the cause of death. This could explain why her knees are drawn up, indications that she was agonizingly dying.

Just thoughts, respectfully submitted.

Best to you.

Chadwick

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Well here is the problem. The more we describe what happened as an attack the more inconsistencies we come up with. If it was a vicious attack, Liz's reaction seems a bit strange. You would think that she would scream bloody murder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man man for help. Yet all we have is three small screams which could simply be indicative of surprise more than fear. The BS man is so incredibly angry that he does not care that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man and follows through with Liz's murder. If this is true, did Liz not pick up on it? Did she not realize how much danger she was in? That seems very strange and again you would think she would scream loudly and for help.

With regard to the cachous, if it was a vicious attack, how did they survive Liz roughly being thrown to the ground as they were simply wrapped in tissue paper? And if she is being dragged after being thrown to the ground, they have to survive that as well. Surely Liz must have known she was now fighting for her life at that point. Now nobody in the club heard any screams and if the BS man had his hand over her mouth she would need to get that hand away so she could scream. Trying to pull that hand away or trying to push herself would require an open hand not a fist and you would expect the cachous to be scattered as a result.

c.d.

Hi cd
Valid points all.

I guess I have to give you my full theory to respond so you know where i am coming from. I think it is more probable that IS testimony about what he saw between BS man and LS is true and accurate than not. Also, given the good number of people over a long period of time who saw LS and a man together that night-how do you reconcile the two. IS said he followed a man who then attacked LS. My best guess if both IS said was true and at least some of the witness's accounts are also true than what may have occured is that LS met BS man earlier that night. BS man is JtR. He wanted her in an alley way. She is reluctant, fearful of the ripper scare, perhaps looking at this new guy as a potential boyfriend. They play their little cat and mouse game over a period of time, walking around, him trying to seduce her into doing what he wants, buying her things, (caschous, flower etc.) she not wanting to go right into the alley. In front of Dutfields yard she refuses again-he gets frustrated and leaves, then quickly losing his temper turning back around (this is where IS arrives behind him) going back and assaults her. After scaring off IS he drags her into the yard and kills her, quickly leaving.

LS may have never felt she was being attacked by JtR, just a frustrated punter/horny guy. She was not screaming for bloody murder because she thought she was being attacked by JtR, she was yelling at him(a guy she liked) to stop and leave her alone. Also, I think there might be a good chance that IS witnessed BSman/JtR cut her throat in the street, but did not realize it in the quick motions and dark conditions, and just described as he did. With regards to the caschous my view is that she simply held on to them tightly through the attack.

I think this might be a case of JtR losing his temper and blowing his cool because he spent alot of time(and money?) on LS and she would not do as he expected and wanted.

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

Well here is the problem. The more we describe what happened as an attack the more inconsistencies we come up with. If it was a vicious attack, Liz's reaction seems a bit strange. You would think that she would scream bloody murder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man man for help. Yet all we have is three small screams which could simply be indicative of surprise more than fear. The BS man is so incredibly angry that he does not care that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man and follows through with Liz's murder. If this is true, did Liz not pick up on it? Did she not realize how much danger she was in? That seems very strange and again you would think she would scream loudly and for help.

With regard to the cachous, if it was a vicious attack, how did they survive Liz roughly being thrown to the ground as they were simply wrapped in tissue paper? And if she is being dragged after being thrown to the ground, they have to survive that as well. Surely Liz must have known she was now fighting for her life at that point. Now nobody in the club heard any screams and if the BS man had his hand over her mouth she would need to get that hand away so she could scream. Trying to pull that hand away or trying to push herself would require an open hand not a fist and you would expect the cachous to be scattered as a result.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think the key word in your statement is "attacked." Schwartz never used that word. It's quite possible that Liz simply lost her balance and fell or that it was some sort of mild altercation that took place between prostitutes and potential customers (probably drunk) with some regularity. The BS man could have simply cussed her out and been on his way.

You also use the word drag. How did the cachous survive being thrown to the ground and Liz being dragged?

c.d.

Hi cd

your right he never said attacked. he said


He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. .... The man who threw the woman down called out,




taken together it sure sounds like an attack or assault, not a mere cussing out. It was a physical altercation. I don't think attack is too strong a word at
all to describe the event. I do think cussing out is too light a word to describe it. I think anyone after being assaulted like that might need a little more time to regain there composure.

But even if she shook it off immediately she would need to find another client and retire to the alley within minutes-which in itself seems unlikely given the short time and/or relative paucity of potential clients in the area.

As regards to the caschous-I think too much is made of it. There is many instances where people who have been attacked, murdered, died violently etc are found clutching something in their hand. In Strides case it might have been a natural reaction to clutch them tighter (perhaps if she is making a fist to punch back).

[c.d.]

Hi Abby,

I think the key word in your statement is "attacked." Schwartz never used that word. It's quite possible that Liz simply lost her balance and fell or that it was some sort of mild altercation that took place between prostitutes and potential customers (probably drunk) with some regularity. The BS man could have simply cussed her out and been on his way.

You also use the word drag. How did the cachous survive being thrown to the ground and Liz being dragged?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I dont see how someone could go from being attacked in the street by one man to very shortly after (within minutes) go with another man into an alley. If IS testimony is correct, then more than likely BS man was her killer, who dragged her into the yard to finish off the initial attack after scaring IS off.

[c.d.]

If she knew how to calm Kidney, she never would have been beaten up in the past.

If he was in such a rage, how could she possibly know what his intentions were? I would think that given a choice she would have preferred not to be beaten up.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that Kidney is her killer. How do the police figure in this scenario? Doesn't it seem reasonable that an ex-lover whom she has recently left and who had a history of abuse with her would be the prime suspect? Don't you think that he would have been questioned and asked for an alibi? And, if in talking to Schwartz, his description of the BS man resembled Kidney in any way, don't you think that they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at Kidney and see if he was the man he saw throw Liz to the ground? If Kidney got a pass in all of this then we are looking at some very incompetent police work.

c.d.

[Phil H]

...Would this be the same Kidney that has physically abused her in the past...

She KNEW Kidney, had probably learned how to calm him. I see no reason why she should have been particularly frightened of him. The worst she might have expected was to be beaten up a bit.

If she was on a "date" that night, then she might have been more afraid of her beau seeing an altercation.

...and the same Kidney that just threw her to the ground and threatened Schwartz with violence?

You'll note that I did not mention the Hungarian, specifically because I am suspicious of his testimony. the two versions are different enough not to know which might be right, and to create an impression (at least in my mind) that - if he saw anything - he misinterpreted what he saw.

Hope that explains where i am coming from,

Phil

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

You say that she would have few qualms about going further into the yard with Kidney. Would this be the same Kidney that has physically abused her in the past and the same Kidney that just threw her to the ground and threatened Schwartz with violence? Does she really think at this point that he wants to calmly discuss investment opportunities outside the city of London?

c.d.

[Phil H]

But if her assailant was Kidney, she would probably have few qualms about going further into the yard - and perhaps closer to the club back-door - with him.

If, as I believe, she was on a "date" that night, she may have wanted to avoid a public "scene" with her former lover. Knowing him she may have thought she could pacify him with a few words.

I am certainly not going to draw any conclusions from the cashous in her hand - if we had photographs or even a sketch I might be more convinved, but interpreting words and then building speculation on that interpretation is too much and too far for me.

It is quite possible, in my view, that Kidney feeling provoked and possibly drunnk, slashed her throat in a single motion, and she crumpled, gripping the cashous tightly perhaps in her final rictus. Speculation, I know, but for me a simpler scenario than some of the complex interpretations of the evidence I have seen.

Phil

[c.d.]

I think it is a natural reaction to try to catch yourself with your hands when you fall. So the cachous (which were loosely wrapped) would have to withstand the impact of the fall. But more importantly we have to figure out how Liz got from the street into the yard where she was found. Would she have gone voluntarily with the BS man who has just thrown her to the ground and threatened Schwartz? That seems unlikely. Now if she is dragged by the BS man and she makes any attempt to fend him off, the cachous have to withstand that as well. That would make them pretty resilient breath mints. To me, it indicates that she only took them out when the BS man had left the scene and she felt safe.

c.d.