The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[mariab]

I have always assumed that there would be no reason for Phillips to check this bruising twice more. What would that add to the inquiry?

Curious,
if Stride's bruises were augmenting and becoming more pronounced postmortem, Dr. Phillips would have registered this, and possibly would want to re-check it.
Apologies for calling you a housewife and a Swedish! I recall about the Scandinavian part from the Liz and the grapes thread, where we were talking about snow conditions. (I'm a freestyle snowboarder on withdrawal for most of this season, which I can assure you is not a pretty sight, and I just had to leave Iceland without really wanting to.)

Abby, Lynn,
Stride most clearly was working it on the night of September 30, hence the host of different men she was seen spending time with for short intervals. And Lynn, your Rocker is still in impeccable condition, despite its travelling to Iceland.
(Now I bet I'm gonna be accused again of being a “people person“, just because my brain happened to register someone's location and a colleague was generous enough to lend me a book, for research.)

Maybe it is just me and I am a bit cranky today but it seems like it is getting harder and harder to discuss things on these boards.

Fully agree, C.D., and you don't even wanna know how cranky I am myself today.

With looots of hugs and kisses for all the bunnies and the butterflies and my barbie doll from casebook's biographer, AKA the people person who deeeeeply cares about those she associates with

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=Phil H;176624]The tone of responses to posts that challenge the narrow focus of conventional thinking amuses me.

the one I am about to respond to is a good example. The sense of outrage is almost tangible. That then means that the questions are posed in such a way that they are the wrong questions - because they are all centred on cherished "cob-webby" hypotheses. open the windows and let the fresh air in guys"

Phil,

I am not really appreciating your lecture here. You seem to be channeling the spirit of our good friend Perry Mason aka Michael. If I hold a certain view it is because I have looked at the evidence and I believe that that view is the most probable. If it is the conventional view, so be it. Taking a fresh look at things is fine and should be encouraged but a different approach doesn't necessarily mean that it is the correct one.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Let's be real careful with this characters don't behave in a prescribed way thing otherwise we are going to have to invoke another asterisk rule and any attempt at probability versus possibility will be out the door.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Can we invoke some sort of "asterisk" rule with regard to Liz Stride being a prostitute? Maybe every time we refer to her as a prostitute we can just add a * and everyone agrees that this means that although we can't say with 100% metaphysical certainty that she actually engaged in prostitution she was registered as a prostitute in Sweden although sometimes that simply meant she had an STD or a child out of wedlock or some other reason that we don't know about but there are witnesses who mentioned that she sometimes engaged in prostitution or that they simply alluded to that fact although we can't be absolutely sure of what they were trying to imply or perhaps they had some sort of grudge against Liz and were trying to smear her reputation and we can't verify their statements with 100% metaphysical certainty.

And when we use two asterisks ** it will mean that although Liz was a prostitute* (see above for meaning of asterisk) we are not sure that she was engaging in the actual act of prostitution at the time because sometimes prostitutes take a day off and have a love life or are out on the street shopping or looking for a place to take a leak etc.

Yes, that was sarcasm and a deliberate run on sentence. Maybe it is just me and I am a bit cranky today but it seems like it is getting harder and harder to discuss things on these boards.

c.d.

[curious4]

I can see where C4 is coming with his idea that Phillips might have been comparing the bruising to cases from his past, based on the material C4 is using as his source. That's why it's so necessary to read ALL the papers who offered their own coverage of the inquests. Doing so, you will see that there's no question of what Dr. Phillips is saying - he noticed the bruising appear and get progressively more pronounced. this is Parimortem bruising, and it could only have occurred within a short time prior to death or even after death - possibly even when her body was picked up for moving inside the club. Most likely, it occurred prior to death. but a malnutritioned, middle-aged woman with fair skin would be extremely easy to bruise, so a client trying to get a grip might be all we see here. It's impossible to say.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Could you point me in the right direction to confirm this? I have always assumed that there would be no reason for Phillips to check this bruising twice more. What would that add to the inquiry?

Regards,
C4

[curious4]

Either having a child out of wedlock or an std could get her registered as a prostitute at the time in Sweden - anything that could be construed as "loose living"

Unhousewifely yours,
C4

[curious4]

Tom, we don't know which part of Schwartz' story might be true, including his (or other IWEC members') perhaps having seen Stride with “Pipeman“ and his minions on September 30 or even previously, despite the IWEC and other neighbors denying of having seen Stride before on Berner Street.

Wow! It's the very first time in my life I've been called a “people person, caring about those she associates with“. I almost feel like I should run and enlist as a nurse, or a kindergarten teacher! Normally, my people call me a “misanthrope“. No, Tom, really, it's just attention to detail, until Alzheimer's hits. I happen to recall that Curious is a housewife or something from Sweden, simply for the same reason I insisted on finding out about the German Emperor('s clothes).

Not Swedish either. Male or female - is it relevant? But yes, female, definitely!

[lynn cates]

I robot

Hello Abby.

"These were not robots or one dimensional automatons. Every situation was different, the people had different moods, personalities, circumstances, desires etc. that made the events around every murder unique."

Wholeheartedly agree. But the stereotyped behaviour viv-a-vis some aspects of the 5 killings was what gave rise to the "JTR" myth in the first place. When we begin to think in terms of 5 unique murders we may be well on the way to disposing of the JTR nonsense once and for all time.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"I don't think LS was actively prostituting that night."

Agreed.

"I think she was a prostitute . . ."

As you wish. She was registered as one in Sweden. What caused that state of affairs? Perhaps it was because she had a child out of wedlock? (My sainted mum once indicated to me [ca 1966] that any girl who wore her skirt above the knee was a prostitute.) Perhaps she indicated that on a census? And yes, the police THOUGHT so too. So, you're in good company here. (Of course, I leave the possibility of an argumentum ad populam for you to judge.)

" . . . but that does not mean every time she is with a man it is because she is prostituting herself."

Indeed! Even though the mighty Abberline was a great copper, he did occasionally take a night off from his police work.

"Also, my idea does not necessarily mean she was on preplanned date either-She probably met her killer earlier in the evening."

Very well. But do you have a good narrative for her double bailment? If she were out for a late evening but planned to return, why not pay your doss, have 2d left over, and keep your velvet and hymnal yourself?

And what was she doing when she met her killer? Those who say "soliciting" at least have a reason for her to be out and about that night.

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC

And what was she doing when she met her killer? Those who say "soliciting" at least have a reason for her to be out and about that night.


out having a drink, taking a walk, looking for a new boyfriend, shopping, whatever.

As I responed to CD:

Also, I have to comment on the notion that the people involved were bound to act like charactors who behaved by some prescribed way. These were not robots or one dimensional automatons. Every situation was different, the people had different moods, personalities, circumstances, desires etc. that made the events around every murder unique.

[Abby Normal]

I just don't see Jack (as the BS man) going through the motions of "dating" Liz. For one thing, if they spent any time together in public places, it makes him vulnerable to being identified by the police making inquiries afterwards. I also don't see Liz playing the coquette and playing hard to get. If it was supposed to ultimately be a business transaction why not get on with it? Time was money.

c.d.

Hi cd
As i responded to LC, i don't think she was actively prostituting that night.

Spending more time did make JtR more vulnerable I agree as verified to the number of witnesses that saw them together that night. But JtR was a calculting risk taker, but until the murder takes place he is nothing more than a man with a women.

Alot of things made him vulnerable much more so than spending more time in public with a potential victim such as: killing women in public places, killing one women right after killing another, kiling a women broad daylight, killing a women in her apartment where the risk of being trapped was great.(if you beleive he wrote the GSG and any of the letters than these too) I think spending more time than usual with a potential victim is small potatoes to the killer.

Also, I have to comment on the notion that the people involved were bound to act like charactors who behaved by some prescribed way. These were not robots or one dimensional automatons. Every situation was different, the people had different moods, personalities, circumstances, desires etc. that made the events around every murder unique.

[lynn cates]

Hello Abby.

"I don't think LS was actively prostituting that night."

Agreed.

"I think she was a prostitute . . ."

As you wish. She was registered as one in Sweden. What caused that state of affairs? Perhaps it was because she had a child out of wedlock? (My sainted mum once indicated to me [ca 1966] that any girl who wore her skirt above the knee was a prostitute.) Perhaps she indicated that on a census? And yes, the police THOUGHT so too. So, you're in good company here. (Of course, I leave the possibility of an argumentum ad populam for you to judge.)

" . . . but that does not mean every time she is with a man it is because she is prostituting herself."

Indeed! Even though the mighty Abberline was a great copper, he did occasionally take a night off from his police work.

"Also, my idea does not necessarily mean she was on preplanned date either-She probably met her killer earlier in the evening."

Very well. But do you have a good narrative for her double bailment? If she were out for a late evening but planned to return, why not pay your doss, have 2d left over, and keep your velvet and hymnal yourself?

And what was she doing when she met her killer? Those who say "soliciting" at least have a reason for her to be out and about that night.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pleurisy and the union

Hello CD.

" . . . certainly the prostitutes were afraid of the unnamed individual who was reportedly cutting the throats of their fellow prostitutes and REMOVING THEIR ORGANS."

Their organs? Hmm, you used a plural pronoun. Why is that? Surely Annie Chapman was the only woman with organs removed prior to the "Double Event"?

"Fellow prostitutes"? That sounds like a labour union--perhaps, "Amalgamated Sex Workers"? And, once again, this assumes that Liz was soliciting. Recall that, as late as Tuesday, she was cohabiting with MK. So now she leaves him so she can get back to a more satisfying and lucrative position (poor choice of words?) in spite of the fears you claim she has of being murdered?

Something missing here?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Let's explore.

"BS man is JtR."

As you wish. I have no doubt but that IS and the lads at the IWMEC wished the BS story to imply 1. BS man killed Liz. 2. BS man was NOT Jewish.

"He wanted her in an alley way."

No harm here. Of course, neither Polly nor Annie were in an alley way, but I waive all that.

"She is reluctant, fearful of the ripper scare"

What ripper scare? There was no JTR and the Leather Apron business was winding down. All clear for 3 weeks.

". . . perhaps looking at this new guy as a potential boyfriend."

But beginning when? At an earlier part of that night? Is that why she found someone to keep her velvet piece and another to keep her hymnal? Very well. Let's say she was invited on a date and sees a potential new boyfriend.

"They play their little cat and mouse game over a period of time, walking around, him trying to seduce her into doing what he wants, buying her things, (cachous, flower etc.) she not wanting to go right into the alley."

But this won't do. If Liz is soliciting, you make your client happy, collect the fee, and you're off for verse 2. But perhaps she is walking up and down the street, gazing into his eyes and comparing his sensitivity to the former lout, Michael. But then coyness seems inappropriate here also. Strike while the iron's hot.

"In front of Dutfields yard she refuses again-he gets frustrated and leaves . . ."

Indeed. But if Liz, who began the evening with 6d is doing all this to earn 4d, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with her economic sense.

" . . . then quickly losing his temper turning back around (this is where IS arrives behind him) going back and assaults her. After scaring off IS he drags her into the yard and kills her, quickly leaving."

Notice that, if BS wishes to mutilate someone, he is going to almost as much trouble as Liz is in trying to earn 4d. If he is seen on multiple occasions with Liz, he runs a great danger in being identified. But now, he IS identified--if we accept the Schwartz story. After all, aren't there other women about who can be ripped?

On the other hand, if IS is lying . . .

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC
I dont think LS was actively prostituting that night. I think she was a prostitute but that does not mean everytime she is with a man it is because she is prostituting herself. Also, my idea does not necessarily mean she was on preplanned date either-She probably met her killer earlier in the evening.

[Chris]

Hello Chris, Well this is why I came to grief with Standing Order 432, there is no way of knowing in what sense Phillips was using the word unless, in the future, someone can wire up a surviving Victorian brain and ask.

I think that's overly pessimistic.

[curious4]

"In the time past, counting backward from the present; before this or now; ago"

That's the same usage as "eight years since" that you mentioned before. But you're suggesting something different from that - you're suggesting that in addition to "before the present" it can also mean "before a previous occasion." I don't agree. I'm saying that "since last Wednesday" always means "after last Wednesday", not "before last Wednesday."

Hello Chris, Well this is why I came to grief with Standing Order 432, there is no way of knowing in what sense Phillips was using the word unless, in the future, someone can wire up a surviving Victorian brain and ask. I am at present reviewing my Dickens to see whether I can find anything to substantiate my claim. I`ll be back (I hope).

Regards,
C4