The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[Stewart P Evans]

Tendency

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I can attest that Tom's not that far gone yet.
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I was merely pointing out a tendency.

'Red Demon' and I go back a long way and I have a lot of respect for the work he has done, and is doing. However, he has displayed an increasing fixation on 'Le Grand' that, I feel, sometimes clouds his judgement. But I don't wish to put him off (not that I could) and he is pursuing valid research.

[mariab]

Thank you so much for listing the discrepances between the Star and the Swanson report systematically for all to see, Mr. Evans. It's very helpful.

I apologize again most profusely for my silly mistake of calling a “police report“ a “memo“ and a “witness statement“ a “police report“, and I assure you it was not meant at all as disrespect to your formidable investigative and research experience, Mr. Evans, and I'm sure it's the same for Tom. Sometimes mistakes are a necessary evil in the learn process. At least I can attest that the lessons learned from my own mistakes and the embarrassing situations I put myself in were the most valuable and durable life lessons.

Those who opt for a specific suspect that then becomes an idee fixe tend to become lost causes.

I can attest that Tom's not that far gone yet.

a very strong case can be made against Le Grand in the murder of Stride, and a shockingly decent case against him as the Ripper, but the former is greater than the latter, so I hold to the very real possibility that he killed only Stride. In any event, I’m perfectly capable of separating one from the other and discussing with an open, bias-free mind.

I have a feeling that I (and perhaps Lynn Cates a tiny bit, but not really) have contributed much more than Tom to a certain frenzy on the boards, by perhaps too insistingly discussing our mutual ongoing research and enthusiasm. But research is a pretty addictive activity, especially to neophytes. And there is at least one very recent finding (during Easter week) which constitutes solid evidence, and a few promising but still inconclusive “finds“(?) from Paris, which I can't wait to research further.

[Stewart P Evans]

Differences

The Star report is at odds with the details of Schwartz's story in the reports by Swanson and Abberline on several significant points.

In the Star report the man 'pushed Stride back into the passage' as opposed to 'trying to pull her into the street, turning her round and throwing her down on the footway'.

The Star has the second man 'coming out of the doorway of the public-house' as opposed to ' standing lighting his pipe...on the opposite side of the road'.

In the Star report the second man 'shouted out some sort of warning' to the attacker of Stride as opposed to 'the man who threw the woman down' calling out 'Lipski' 'apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road'.

The Star report has the second man 'rushing forward as if to attack' Schwartz with 'a knife in his hand', not a pipe.

In my view these differences are pretty significant.

[Stewart P Evans]

Specific Suspect

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Stewart either considers me a lost cause or just prefers to avoid exchange with me whenever possible. However, my use of 'memo' didn't feel right even as I wrote it, and they're certainly not 'reports'. I probably should have said Abberline's replies or responses.
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Tom Wescott

Those who opt for a specific suspect that then becomes an idee fixe tend to become lost causes. You certainly used to be a lot more logical and exhibited more common sense before.

They certainly are reports that Abberline wrote, or are you telling me, a 62-year-old ex-police officer with nearly 30 years police service, what a police report is? Those with pet theories really do become tiresome at times.

[Stewart P Evans]

Opposite side of the road...

Hi Wickerman. Logic, but not solid evidence, suggests Schwartz was familiar with the Berner Street club. Also, Swanson's report does not specifically state that Pipeman was on the board school side. Due to Swanson's rather rushed writing, it's ambiguous. But it's important to note that the Star and Swanson do not comflict on many points.
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Tom Wescott

Swanson's report does specifically state that the man lighting his pipe was on the opposite side of the road to 'the man who threw the woman down'. This was thrashed out on JTRForums and is backed by Abberline's later report. I do not intend to get into another lengthy debate about semantics. The Star and Swanson do conflict on several points.

[lynn cates]

not a definitely ascertained fact

Hello Jon.

"Was Schwartz affiliated with this club?"

That is what a few of us are trying to ascertain.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I'm just trying to establish in my own mind whether you are talking about the police version of Pipeman, or the Star's version, ie; Pipeman=Knifeman?

Yes, I was referring to the Star report and the alleged knife in Pipeman's hands, as I assume you were too.
Pertaining to the other questions, they have all been answered by Tom, so no need to bother, I guess.

The fact that his wife moved in his absence suggesting a lack of furniture or fixed belongings

Unless Schwartz' wife was built like me (and BS), i.e., naturally more fitted to be moving pianos than playing them.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick. I don't know as I haven't read it, but probably so. Apparently I need to. Was it convincing? Do you post as Wickerman over there as well?

Er, ...No, and Yes, in that order
:-)

Regarding Schwartz, what made me first think he might be affiliated with the club is that he lived on Berner Street until the day of the murder, and the club is the only place I'm aware of that took in young, immigrant Jews. The fact that his wife moved in his absence suggesting a lack of furniture or fixed belongings, so it all fit together. Also, imagine yourself a foriegner in a country where most don't speak English (no offense if you're bi/multi-lingual), and right there on your street was a club full of men your age speaking your language. Can you imagine Schwartz NOT popping in? But I stress that i don't believe he was a member. Wess said as much himself, but wouldn't give the press his name. Yet he knew about the event. All this adds up to a strong likelihood Wess and Schwartz knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Makes sense to me...

Thankyou for the insight, Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. I don't know as I haven't read it, but probably so. Apparently I need to. Was it convincing? Do you post as Wickerman over there as well? Regarding Schwartz, what made me first think he might be affiliated with the club is that he lived on Berner Street until the day of the murder, and the club is the only place I'm aware of that took in young, immigrant Jews. The fact that his wife moved in his absence suggesting a lack of furniture or fixed belongings, so it all fit together. Also, imagine yourself a foriegner in a country where most don't speak English (no offense if you're bi/multi-lingual), and right there on your street was a club full of men your age speaking your language. Can you imagine Schwartz NOT popping in? But I stress that i don't believe he was a member. Wess said as much himself, but wouldn't give the press his name. Yet he knew about the event. All this adds up to a strong likelihood Wess and Schwartz knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

....Also, Swanson's report does not specifically state that Pipeman was on the board school side. Due to Swanson's rather rushed writing, it's ambiguous...

Hi Tom.
Ah yes, then this must be the "on crossing", "opposite", argument that became so hot several weeks ago on Howards domain?

Thankyou, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. I think it's possible - and certainly reasonable - that the police would to some degree doubt Schwartz's veracity if a connection to the club could be shown. This might explain why the police were initially taking him with a grain of salt.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman.

Again, we're NOT rejecting Pipeman, we're just establishing that a newspaper report is less an accurate source than internal police reports.

I'm just trying to establish in my own mind whether you are talking about the police version of Pipeman, or the Star's version, ie; Pipeman=Knifeman?

Precisely. Wess accompanied Leon Goldstein to the same precint as an interpreter.

Ok, thanks, I must have missed that point.

A connection with the IWEC might explain why (according to the Star report of October 2) the police were initially having some doubts pertaining to Schwartz's story.
Incidentally, this is an hypothesis generated by Tom Wescott years ago.

So you think politics played such a significant role that the police might discard the witness (Schwartz) because of his (possible?) membership at the IWEC?

Thanks, Jon S.

[mariab]

Stewart either considers me a lost cause or just prefers to avoid exchange with me whenever possible.

Hilarious thought. I'm pretty sure Mr. Evans has seen your post about wanting to figure out what you were saying later on. I'm also pretty sure Mr. Evans is fast asleep by now, which is a much healthier lifestyle than of some other Casebookers, particularly mine.
Tom, you misled me with “memos“. Tsk tsk tsk. I was prepared to keep this a secret even under the Spanish Inquisition, but then you came out with it yourself.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wickerman. Logic, but not solid evidence, suggests Schwartz was familiar with the Berner Street club. Also, Swanson's report does not specifically state that Pipeman was on the board school side. Due to Swanson's rather rushed writing, it's ambiguous. But it's important to note that the Star and Swanson do not comflict on many points.

But why is Tom entitled to say “memos“ instead of “reports“

Stewart either considers me a lost cause or just prefers to avoid exchange with me whenever possible. However, my use of 'memo' didn't feel right even as I wrote it, and they're certainly not 'reports'. I probably should have said Abberline's replies or responses.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Was Schwartz affiliated with this club?

I'm researching this in French spy reports about anarchist activity in Victorian Whitechapel. There's evidence, but still inconclusive. It'll be also cross-referenced with Der Arbeter Fraint.