The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[mariab]

Quote Curious:
He said it at the inquest on Liz Stride - after performing the autopsy.

Curious,
the different newspapers have reported slightly different versions of the Stride inquest. Tom Wescott is absolutely correct in what he said to you last night. And at this point and as I've noticed on many occasions, Tom is much better acquainted with the entirety of the newspaper reports pertaining to Berner Street than myself or than anyone else, so we're really talking expert's opinion here. (While I hope to be going through these same reports in a couple weeks myself.)

I can see where C4 is coming with his idea that Phillips might have been comparing the bruising to cases from his past, based on the material C4 is using as his source. That's why it's so necessary to read ALL the papers who offered their own coverage of the inquests. Doing so, you will see that there's no question of what Dr. Phillips is saying - he noticed the bruising appear and get progressively more pronounced.

[lynn cates]

ad hominem circumstantial

Hello Caz, CD, Maria, et al. (Oops, Al is no longer a poster.)

To be completely serious, I do NOT attribute that remark to Liz any more than I attribute any of the other given sightings (save Smith's) of Liz to be really about Liz. Frankly, I must confess that it was a shameless argumentum ad hominem circumstantial. But I am astonished that many felt the need to deal with it. I suppose that's the result of accepting pieces of testimony that do not fit with the other pieces.

Say, did someone mention Israel Schwartz? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn,
I fully agree with you about Schwartz and PC William Smith's man seen with Stride possibly having been IWEC members (which initially are both ideas originated by Tom Wescott), still, we can't just go and dismiss the other witnesses. Their testimonies are part of the evidence, so we must deal with them.
Also, please don't look at this as a philosophical/mathematical equation. This is a crime investigation, involving political ramifications. (And yes, I know you'll love the last part. ;-))

PS.: You cracked me up with Al (from at al). Again, am I being too much of a “people person“ for laughing at a joke? Tom can laugh at all jokes without being branded “a deeply caring person“, I guess.

[lynn cates]

testimony

Hello Maria. Yes, it is once again disclaimer time. I did NOT originate the IS fibbed possibility nor the IWMEC lad chatting up Liz scenario. But once I hear the jigsaw piece snap into place, it is there--for good or for ill.

"Their testimonies are part of the evidence, so we must deal with them."

They are indeed. And I deal with them on a case by case basis.

G & B wanted a piece of the limelight. Not convinced? They see Liz in a pub, yet she has no malt liquor in her tummy? Still not convinced? Their story is nearly as phony as John Kelly's about "his Kate" and fearing the knife. ("Be careful that's not Leather Apron getting his arms around you.") Finally, they were conspicuously absent from the inquest.

Brown was pretty sure he saw Liz. That's a trifle weak?

Marshall is the toughest to debunk. But for starters, why is Liz now SOUTH of the club?

Please continue to laugh at ALL jokes, those who don't end up taking themselves FAR too seriously.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

A whore is a whore, of course, of course...

As for Mr Westcott's assertions, we know he has his own theory to advance, and I take his post in that light.

Hi Phil. We don’t know each other that well, so I’m sure you don’t realize how offensive and degrading it can be to be accused of essentially being a manipulative liar, which is how I see it when someone suggests I would present the public with evidence in a light that will bolster a personal theory. My research into the Stride murder – and it has been extensive – is what led me to Charles Le Grand, not vice versa. Before knowing anything about it I had concluded, based on the evidence, that Kidney had not killed Liz Stride. If you read my essay on the matter, you will find it’s the evidence speaking, not me. If anything, Le Grand opened my mind further to the possibility that someone other than the Ripper killed Stride. I say this because a very strong case can be made against Le Grand in the murder of Stride, and a shockingly decent case against him as the Ripper, but the former is greater than the latter, so I hold to the very real possibility that he killed only Stride. In any event, I’m perfectly capable of separating one from the other and discussing with an open, bias-free mind.

Can we invoke some sort of "asterisk" rule with regard to Liz Stride being a prostitute? Maybe every time we refer to her as a prostitute we can just add a * and everyone agrees that this means that although we can't say with 100% metaphysical certainty that she actually engaged in prostitution

I’m afraid I can’t abide by that since there’s enough evidence on record for us to be able to say with certainty that she was a prostitute. For starters, the police inquiry (which took in virtually everyone she knew) concluded she was a prozzie, and enough of her friends said as much to the press that I can only assume it’s modern sympathy and romanticism that leads some to conclude she was not a prostitute. This is doing her memory no favors and in fact suggests that her ‘defenders’ are more ashamed of Liz’s calling than she was herself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Just an observation

Pirate Jack hasn't posted since my post here last night...You're welcome.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I can only assume it’s modern sympathy and romanticism that leads some to conclude she was not a prostitute. This is doing her memory no favors and in fact suggests that her ‘defenders’ are more ashamed of Liz’s calling than she was herself.

Tom, I suspect that lots of the non acceptance for Stride having been a prostitute is related to the theory circulating that Stride was a spy. (For which, truly, I'm not sure why it couldn't be considered that she might have been both. Kidding now.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Again, am I being too much of a “people person“ for laughing at a joke? Tom can laugh at all jokes without being branded “a deeply caring person“, I guess.

I’m not a deeply caring person? I was paying a rare compliment last night when I stated you seem to care about the people on Casebook. Somehow, you’ve become offended by this. Am I sexier when I’m terse, dismissive, and mean? You tell me, because I have a very versatile pimp hand.

G & B wanted a piece of the limelight. Not convinced? They see Liz in a pub, yet she has no malt liquor in her tummy? Still not convinced? Their story is nearly as phony as John Kelly's about "his Kate" and fearing the knife. ("Be careful that's not Leather Apron getting his arms around you.") Finally, they were conspicuously absent from the inquest.

G&B almost certainly saw Liz Stride that night. Want to know why I say that? And incidentally they had a third witness (unnamed) with them who backed up their story.

Brown was pretty sure he saw Liz. That's a trifle weak?

Or perhaps a trifle honest? And he was ‘almost certain’, for the record.

Marshall is the toughest to debunk. But for starters, why is Liz now SOUTH of the club?

Because she was standing outside the George IV pub to pick up punters. Marshall’s house was right next to it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, I suspect that lots of the non acceptance for Stride having been a prostitute is related to the theory circulating that Stride was a spy. (For which, truly, I'm not sure why it couldn't be considered that she might have been both. Kidding now.)

I seriously doubt this, since the notion that Stride (and Eddowes) wasn't a prostitute predates the spy theory...and because only two humans alive actually think Stride was a spy - Lynn Cates and Tom Slemen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I’m not a deeply caring person? I was paying a rare compliment last night when I stated you seem to care about the people on Casebook. Somehow, you’ve become offended by this.

Tom, I know you meant this as a compliment, and I'm not really offended. For some reason it just made me cringe big time, probably cuz 1) it ain't accurate, and I HATE innacuracy 2)it was embarrassing, and 3)you really don't get me, do you? But never mind.

Am I sexier when I’m terse, dismissive, and mean? You tell me

Dunno yet, gotta try. You've never been dismissive or mean to me. And this is not a complain. :-) I like terse though (like right now). And I love it when you complain and whine about my not retaining all the details in your articles. On which I'll do my best to improve, I swear. Because they're worth it.

because I have a very versatile pimp hand.

Which is a joke compared to my lethal kick or butt-head technique, which are documented to have been triggered instinctively, without my even having planned it consciously. With bloody consequences. But we don't want to go there.

[mariab]

I seriously doubt this, since the notion that Stride (and Eddowes) wasn't a prostitute predates the spy theory

Wow, didn't know that. Newbie roots are showing up again.

...and because only two humans alive actually think Stride was a spy - Lynn Cates and Tom Slemen.

I'm pretty sure that Lynn doesn't seriously consider that Stride might have been a spy. Who's Tom Slemen?

[lynn cates]

I spy

Hello Tom and Maria. Better make that Slemen. It is more likely that, whatever bits of information Liz may have gathered in the past (given her level of Yiddish proficiency), that had NOTHING to do with her death.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

old theory

Hello Maria. Tom is quite right that the "Liz & Kate weren't prostituting that night" theory is an old one. Such a theory could scarce arise in the cases of Polly and Annie--after all, it seems clear cut from their own statements that they were. Not so clear with Liz and Kate. Hence the doubt some of us evince about them.

(Just found an old clipping from August 16, 1888 about a young girl who had her throat cut down to the spine in Clerkenwell. I am checking its history now.)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I spy (the gates) with my little eye

Hello Lynn.
I've looked up Slemen, something about a Ripper book and “haunted houses“, but no details. But I can imagine.
Lynn, your suspicions about Diemshitz having allegedly watched the gates all night have piqued my interest. Maybe Tom would like to discuss this? But first we'd have to know if this Diemshitz testimony isn't simply a mixup in the newspapers. I'll need a couple weeks until I'm up for a “comprehensive“ newspaper search. But you guys have seen lots of newspapers reports, especially Tom (pertaining to Berner Street).

Lynn, Stride's acquaintancies knew and testified that she prostituted herself.

[lynn cates]

Wess

Hello Maria. Diemshitz? I was discussing Wess. He claimed to have looked towards the gates. When asked by the coroner why, he replied "Just because they were open." But as I pointed out, they were usually in that condition. So he must have had a different reason--or else he nearly always looked towards the gates. (Or the correct answer should have been, "No particular reason.")

Which acquaintances? There was a lad at the lodging house who hinted, a bit obliquely, that he believed that Liz was soliciting. Can you direct me to anyone else?

Cheers.
LC