If Stride Was a Victim of JTR, What Would It Tell Us?

[Abby Normal]

I agree with Scorpio that Dutfield's Yard was a poor choice for a murder given the knees-up in progress at the IWMC.

We know that prostitutes were, and are, in the habit of leading potential clients to spots where interruption is unlikely and that this fact undoubtedly contributed to the demise of several of the victims. Could it be that Liz had turned Jack down (see James Brown's evidence) and, consumed with the need to kill and mutilate, Jack took matters into his own hands and forced her into the yard (see Israel Schwarz)? If this was the case, it means that it was Jack who chose the location and not Liz, who might have chosen a safer spot given the chance.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Hi Steve
Totally agree. In my mind it appears that Jack spent an unusual amount of time with Stride given the amount of witnesses and there alleged times of seeing him and Stride. Seems Jack was having a little more difficulty reeling this one in. I beleive Stride was being hesitant in going into the dark alley for the deed with him and in the end he lost his cool and attacked her initially in public and finished it off in the yard.

Part of the cat and mouse might have been exhibited in the witness statement by marshal I beleive: "you would say anything but your prayers" as in:

Stride: your not the killer are you
man: You never know
stride: well I'd better say my prayers
man: you would say anything but your prayers

But yes I agree with you, that if this is the case then jack was the one who chose(wrongly it appears) the place this time.

And to the original point of the thread: If IS did indeed witness Jack attack Stride, then Jack was actually interupted TWICE with Stride and I bet he was one pissed off serial killer after the events at Dutfield yard.

Which amazes me even more after all that he is able to calm down in such a short time, procure another victim and according to lawende be in such "normal" appearing state that he has Eddowes gently talking to him with her hand lovingly upon his chest.

[Steven Russell]

Hello, Abby.
Thanks for the support. Of course, it's pure speculation and I don't insist on any of it being correct but it strikes me as being just as likely a scenario as any.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Lechmere]

It is fairly clear Stride had been soliciting in the street for a good hour before her body was found. It seems likely that she would have been engaged by more than one client in that time. She must have taken them somewhere – probably the yard. Even if she had struck out with all her approaches in that hour, she still must have had somewhere in mind to go. Most likely the yard. I would suggest that ten minutes per client would mean she didn’t know her business very well.

[Hunter]

Though street prostitutes tried to take their clients to a place that offered as much seclusion as possible, this was a city with all of the activity that goes on... especially in the hour after the pubs closed. This was also the time when these women sought those men leaving the pubs and returning home. This was the time they expected to earn their doss money.

Dutfield's Yard was no different that Buck's Row, the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street or Mitre Square. It was as secluded in the open street as it was going to get for them. The risk was minimal, even if a cop showed up. Warren had ordered his men to leave them alone unless they caused a disturbance. People minded their own business and when approaching a prostitute and customer, did just that... minded their own business. Everyone knew what went on. They turned a blind eye and went on their way. This was life in the East End. It is still life in many parts of major cities now.

As far as the privies in Dutfield's Yard were concerned, they were in the back beyond the kitchen door to the IMWEC. All of the ambient light - whether from the kitchen or the tenaments across the way... or Eagle's printing office a little farther down - was in the back. The front of the yard was very dark. Someone going from the kitchen door to the privy would be lucky to see anything much towards the gate, but had ample light from the aforementioned sources to see their way to the watercloset.

[kensei]

Hi all, just came across this thread. I believe Liz was killed by JTR and as I was reading everyones' posts a comparison occurred to me as a bit of precedent. In 1975 in Utah Ted Bundy for the first time had a victim fight him off and escape from him. Unsatisfied- just as the Ripper appears to have been- he killed a high school girl that night.

[lynn cates]

cat and mouse

Hello Abby. Just out of curiosity, if Liz were working as a prostitute at the time she was murdered, as everyone seems to think, why on earth would she be playing a cat and mouse game with a "prospective client"?

Could you imagine the following exchange?

Customer: "Say, butcher, sell me a pound of chops?"

Butcher: "No."

C: "Aw, please?"

B: "No, no, no!" (giggle)

C: "Pretty, pretty please?"

B: "Um, well, (tee hee) I'll think about it."

C: "Will you then?"

B: "Ha ha! maybe."

If Liz is playing games, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the claim that she was a starving, down and out prostitute?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

I have never met a woman who doesn't play games. Manilla, Bangkok, and Addis Ababa are full of destitute, prostitute, game-players.

Mike

[lynn cates]

supply/demand

Hello Michael. Well, I cannot speak from authority on that topic. Can say something, however, about supply and demand. In the butcher's case above, I can readily suppose a sensible customer to retort, "Very well, plenty of shops in London" and walk out.

Bottom line: with the purported over supply of "labour" in London and the simultaneous limited demand, it seems like Liz would have been engaging in a risky policy.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Well, I cannot speak from authority on that topic.

I only speak from casual observation. These were not points of interest for me, though for many they are.

Mike

[Hunter]

The analogy of a butcher compared to a prostitute is a poor one. A merchant selling a commodity is at no risk to himself in selling his product to a total stranger. A prostitute selling her body is certainly at risk as the commodity is herself.

Upon being accosted by a potential client the women would size up her prospective client through conversation, whether in need of the business or not. The customer did likewise.That's how initial interaction between strangers go. Coming across jokingly or even playfully is good for business even if the customer is turned down. Most of these men were intoxicated to some degree and the woman knew she had to be skillful in putting him off to avoid an altercation.

Giving the heightened concern at the time it would be understandable for a woman like Stride to exercise whatever measure of caution available given the risk involved anyway... even when faced with the reality that she was now broke and in need of doss money. It probably explains why she was around the IWMEC after the pubs had closed... a location with a measure of security but still on the route of dock laborers and seamen heading back to their lodgings along what was by that time called 'THe Highway'.

A friend of Elizabeth Stride had lived just a block away from Berner Street in the old 'Tiger Bay' area and told the press what Stride's circumstances were at the time. She knew about Kidney and she knew that Stride was on her own again and she knew what Stride was doing to support herself. She knew the woman... we didn't.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Liz might have played a little cat and mouse to guage just how eager this potential client was. The more eager he seemed to be, the more leverage she would have in setting a price. Also, it might have been a good way for her to get a sense of how potentially dangerous he was.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Procrustus

Hello CD. My point is that feeling out the potential client is not congruous with claims of desperation and starvation.

And as regards fixing a price, those who really believe that Liz was soliciting, are usually happy to say that the client was dealing from a position of power regarding price. These little anomalies, however, frequently pop up when we use a theory (eg, Liz was soliciting) as a Procrustean bed on which to fit the facts.

But we all have our theories, eh? I suppose that to be human is to theorise. (Works for me, anyway.)

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

If I understand Lynn correctly, it is a valid point. After the flirting and cuteness wears thin, someone is going to want service. In the example that Lynn used, it could result in being labeled a racist, not wanting to deal with someone seen as a lower class, or sexual harassment are the thoughts from the top of my head. Stride is not young, is alone, and is not the only person available to secure these services, so if she is playing a game too long for any reason, she ends up like the butcher; in hot water.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Viper. Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

if Liz were working as a prostitute at the time she was murdered, as everyone seems to think,

Yeah, that wild eyed crazy notion. Can't imagine how that idea got any credence.