Liz Stride and the grapes

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
Getting rid of BS would have equalled getting rid of the man who possibly lived in FAshion Street, Maria. Thatīs how I see it, at least. He tallies very well with Marshallīs man, and that means he may well have been the man who provided both flower and cachous.
I hadn't realised that you were equating the imagined Fashion-Street-guy with BS, Fish. In that case, you should know that I'm going to try to research BS for similar incidents in The Old Bailey and the Malborough Courts. Possibly a Polyanna idea, but it can't hurt.

Fisherman wrote:
So why not beat Stride about the face before cutting her - if, that is, it was the Ripper? Why the deviation? He was not interrupted - at least not if we work from the assumption that he added the throat-cut AFTER the beatings.
Well, he didn't beat Eddowes or Mary Kelly either. What I'm saying here is that it was a blitz-attack, thus not plausibly domestic. Now, if you too consider BS as the assailant (which I don't recall you mentioning before), then things change. Because an attack by BS would have been in stages. Still, most probably not domestic, in my opinion.

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"he didn't beat Eddowes or Mary Kelly either."

That, Maria, would be terribly hard to assess, given the treatment their faces were subjected to!

"What I'm saying here is that it was a blitz-attack, thus not plausibly domestic."

My own guess has always been that the attack in itself was quick - but it came about after some sort of argumentation between Stride and BS, after which Stride decided to leave the yard, and turned her back on BS man, reaching for her cachous as she left.

"Now, if you too consider BS as the assailant (which I don't recall you mentioning before), then things change."

Only a few hundred times or so, Maria ... We can place BS on the spot, and we know that he interacted with Stride in what seems to be an upset manner only minutes before she died. He is and remains the probable killer.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jane Coram]

I don't know if this is a help or a hindrance, but almost all foodstuffs and commodities that were sold loose were sold in hand-made cones of paper. These could be tissue, newspaper, or brown paper. They would use anything they had to hand basically. The term 'packet' and 'wrapped in tissue paper' are technically both correct. The cone was only sealed by folding the paper over itself, so it could very easily come undone.

Incidentally, Packer would have packaged up his grapes in an identical way, using a newspaper cone. The none squashy items of fruit would have just gone straight into a person's shopping bag or pocket.

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

[mariab]

Thank you so much for the information, Jane! This looks like the conically wrapped paper used for selling chestnuts or sugared almonds on the street (of which I wish I had some right now!).
I hope that your cruise was great fun, and that you and your daughter didn't catch a cold.
I totally owe you a bunch of French pastry, when I get back to Paris in March. (I'm not even suggesting the idea of German pastry, as it's less appetizing than the Lusk kidney.)

To Fisherman:
Eddowes face was badly cut, but a shiner on the chin or sides of the face would have been visible (or materialized post mortem). I dare say it would be the same even for Mary Kelly.

Fisherman wrote:
My own guess has always been that the attack in itself was quick - but it came about after some sort of argumentation between Stride and BS, after which Stride decided to leave the yard, and turned her back on BS man, reaching for her cachous as she left.
Possibly, but the attack and the cut on the throat was too swift and deep for a first time killer, I'd wager. Don Souden once sent me an article of his which discusses this very convincingly.

Fisherman wrote:
We can place BS on the spot, and we know that he interacted with Stride in what seems to be an upset manner only minutes before she died. He is and remains the probable killer.
More or less agree, Fish, but still, we need to clear up the uncertainties with Schwartz as a witness first, as best as we can. There is the possibility that BS didn't even exist!

[Tom_Wescott]

Just a quick note

I'm checking the thread and see is has exploded into a war between our two most wordy posters - Maria and Fish. That's just a wee bit too much for me to follow, but I did read the posts leading up to this and here's a few points...

Michael Kidney - Was not and is not a suspect in the murder of Liz Stride.

Observer - In answer to your question, I doubt Stride was holding the cachous when BS Man attacked her.

Jon Guy - I don't doubt that Blackwell said what you say he said at the inquest, so pointing out that his words appeared in a number of newspapers does not benefit our debate. In any event, it seems Hunter has pointed out to you how Blackwell was in error.

Maria - The spelling of 'Diemschutz' was not a mistake when I wrote that article in 2005, as I had not yet discovered (yes, it was I who discovered it) that the correct spelling was Diemshitz. And I only suggested the publican James Batchelor, I didn't say for certain he was the same man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
Maria - The spelling of 'Diemschutz' was not a mistake when I wrote that article in 2005, as I had not yet discovered (yes, it was I who discovered it) that the correct spelling was Diemshitz. And I only suggested the publican James Batchelor, I didn't say for certain he was the same man.
I know about all this, Tom. I was just directing Curious (I think it was) so that she (he?) doesn't gulp the not updated information in the older article in Ripper Notes #25 (later corrected by yourself).
Apologies about the wordy part. I was feeling very lazy and chatty this morning or whenever it was.
Don't feel compelled to read the entire posts...!

[Tom_Wescott]

Oh, if things get slow today I'll stop on back by and see what had you and Fish Stix chewing the fat for so long.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The significant part lies in the exchange between Lynn and myself (as it pertains to intended/ongoing research). You might also consider doing the redneck test (as discussed in my post #77). ;-)

[Tom_Wescott]

Since it's now politically incorrect to make fun of minorities, there's been a huge movement in recent years to make fun of rednecks, since they're presumed to be white and are an easy target. Living in Oklahoma, I doubt there's a redneck remark I haven't heard or made myself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The redneck test is not offensive, but cute. In fact, I cut pretty high on it (my surfer roots obliging). You should totally check it. (In fact, I think it all started with John Guy commenting on how repulsive you are.)
The site I posted the links for also features tests on “If one can survive a zombie apocalypse“, which I keep acing – all the tests pertaining to this. (In a zombie apocalypse, I'm better than Clint Eastwood and Faith Lehane wrapped in one.)

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"I'm checking the thread and see is has exploded into a war between our two most wordy posters - Maria and Fish."

You misspelt "worthy", Tom.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Worth-less.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom W:

"I'm checking the thread and see is has exploded into a war between our two most wordy posters - Maria and Fish."

You misspelt "worthy", Tom.

LOL. Good one!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
LOL. Good one!
A joke appreciation is your sole contribution to the thread, Tom?
Would you be keen in reading my posts #98 and #105? Any interest in participating in the research discussed in post #105?
It's totally my fault for having flooded this thread with an endless gabfest yesterday, and I apologize profoundly for tiring you all, but please let me state that, after an intensely productive weekend in professional capacity, I was feeling very lazy, very casual, and I wanted to regress and to chinwag about fish and snow with Fish sticks. I PROMISE to restrain myself in the future!

[caz]

My robbery theory holds quite a bit of water actually and easily explains a number of factors: 1) The alleged silence of the victims, 2) The lack of struggle, 3) The thimble next to Eddowes' hand, 4) the items by Chapman's feet and head. It's also supported by the evidence I discussed in Berner Street Mystery Pt 2 which suggests Chapman's rings were taken from her hand while she was still alive.

I like your robbery theory, Tom. I find it quite plausible that the victims were so scared that they kept quiet and hoped to goodness that all this man wanted was to rob them and go, without any fuss.

But how do you see this working in practice with Stride? If she began to empty her pockets, and wasn't holding a single grape throughout her ordeal, how was her killer conned afterwards into believing she had been holding a bunch of ’em, by local gossips who were not there during the encounter?

Incidentally, I read somewhere recently that Packer didn’t only sell fruit, but sweetmeats as well. If so, it’s at least possible that Stride’s cachous came from him - loose from a jar or tin and wrapped in paper to form a cone, or 'packet'. For anyone still not sure what this meant, a Victorian ‘packet’ does not translate neatly into the modern sense of a packet of sweets. This was no cellophane roll of Parma Violets, or pack of Opal Fruits, off a production line.

If Stride bought them herself (with some of her sixpence) and was alone at the time, it would explain how Packer recognised her at the mortuary, after seeing Eddowes and admitting that she rang no bells with him. He could hardly mention it after telling a tall story consisting of a one-off later sighting of the dead woman being treated to grapes by a potential suspect.

Love,

Caz
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