Liz Stride and the grapes

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
Yes, I have been in Iceland. And I thoroughly reccomend it. Fabulous country!
Hi Fish,
I'm thrilled to be going to Iceland, and I'll die if I don't ride Sneffels, particularly in late spring (where there's hardly any night!). If the snowpark (Iceland Park Project) doesn't operate in 2011, I'll try to get some sponsoring by Nikita clothing. You can also surf (longboard) there, for which my 4''-3'' (only once worn) full body wetsuit and booties might come very handy. Have you been to Sneffels?

Fisherman wrote:
Quote Maria
"2 spy reports mention someone named Schwartz."
Interesting - but Schwartz is a very common name, of course!
That was precisely my first reaction, but Rob Clack says that he located only about 4 dozens people tops named Schwartz in the 1891 census, not many of which were Polish or Hungarian, and not many of them having been in the right age to fit. We are working on this. I'm majorly pissed at the stupid French spys for ommitting first names from their reports. Didn't they think of posterity? Or “posteriority“, as Gareth Williams (Sam Flynn) remarked pertaining to Diemshitz?

Fisherman wrote:
You have to add the Star to get there. As far as we can tell, Schwartz did not give differing versions of his story to the police, and we are left with the fact that the discrepancies in the Star version might owe to translation difficulties to at least some extent.
It's not just The Star. I think that Abberline wrote down 2 different statements from Schwartz. Don't have time to check it out now, but Tom and Hunter will know the details.

Fisherman wrote:
Besides, having two independent witnesses at the inquest claim that Stride lived in Fashion Street is not too bad a beginning, is it? Taken together with the fact that Marshalls man and BS seemingly were each others twin brother, Iīd say we do have evidence that points in my direction.
The Fashion Street enigma! There's even been a casebook thread about it, and still we haven't gotten any further, closer to any evidence. In my opinion, it might have simply pertained to a reflex of the Victorian unfortunates to hide their real address. Eddowes also gave a fake address on Fashion Street, and she also gave the name “nobody“ to the police. Or perhaps it was related to some kind of semi-professional activity. For the latter I have it in mind to ask Rob Clack to let me pick his brain, considering that he knows in great detail what shops and people resided on Fashion Street in 1888.
Fish, unless you provide evidence for another man in Stride's life, your theory of a domestic slaying by another than Michael Kidney is of no value. You're a journalist, so I don't need to elaborate.

The Kdw fish place is not as big as a fish market, more like a department section, physically not a very large space, but the amount and the variety of fish exposed is impressive. They frequently have different sorts of parrot fish from the Pacific, and big fish with impressive teeth. Once I bought I don't recall what kind of exotic fish and we made poisson cru, which is a Hawaiian recipe with raw (very fresh) fish left overnight to marinate in coconut milk and lime. (Actually it's a surfer's recipe.). YUM! (And can you imagine if we did that with raw meat?)
As a matter of fact, I'm going to the Kdw much later today, and after talking about this so long, I can't imagine avoiding bringing some fish home.
It's interesting that the Kdw is the only place in my neighborhood (which, despite immediate proximity to the Kdw, is everything but a rich neighborhood) where they feature edible fruit and, if you can believe it, stationery. (Stationary?) So it's kinda like running to Bloomies or Barnie's or Harrods to fetch a pen and some CD-ROMs (for a few cents) – and coming back with 40-€ of fish. Berliner weirdness...
By the by, I mind need to consult you about researching Le Grand's family in Denmark. (While it's even not established if his real name was Christian Nielsen or Nelsson.) Is there a tool like ancestry.denmark or Danish censuses online?

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"Have you been to Sneffels?"

No. Whenever I can avoid snow, I do so.

"Rob Clack says that he located only about 4 dozens people tops named Schwartz in the 1891 census, not many of which were Polish or Hungarian"

That still offers a lot of competition for the title, Iīm afraid. And why settle for Poles or Hungarians only? Was it not suggested at some stage that he could have been Russian?

"I think that Abberline wrote down 2 different statements from Schwartz."

?

"In my opinion, it might have simply pertained to a reflex of the Victorian unfortunates to hide their real address."

Strange, then, donīt you think, that Catherine went to such lengths to substantiate things for Stride, as to state "I used to see her frequently in Fashion-street, where she lived..." at the inquest. Or are you suggesting that Stride spent a good deal of her time walking about in Fashion Street to create the image that ...well, that she was often in Fashion Street?

"Fish, unless you provide evidence for another man in Stride's life, your theory of a domestic slaying by another than Michael Kidney is of no value."

But Maria, having two independent witnesses tell us that "She told me that she was at work among the Jews, and was living with a man in Fashion-street" and ""I used to see her frequently in Fashion-street, where she lived..." IS nothing but evidence telling us that there was another man in her life than Kidney. It is not proof, but it certainly is evidence.
Anyhow, what we are discussing here is not MY ability to provide evidence about a second man in Strides life, but instead YOUR ability to furnish proof that all domestic killings start out with a physical beating. I really fail to see why we should drop that topic - I find it much more interesting and much less resolved.

The best,
Fisherman

[Hunter]

I have to get to work, so there's not much time to elaborate on Schwartz... But what may be of interest is a case that How Brown reminded us about on the JTR Forums that took place in Rotherithe in 1893. Debra Arif and A.P. Wolf had also posted some information on this murder a couple of years ago and I recently found a few news articles on it as well.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11263&page=2

The woman's throat was either cut or stabbed ( can't remember which right now) and she was found with a latch key in her hand as well as some money and a cork nearby. The murderer (a seaman) was apprehended so this would be classified as a domestic. The perpetraitor claimed he was drunk.

Will elaborate more if necessary when there's more time, but I don't want to throw this thread off topic.

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
Quote Maria:
"Have you been to Sneffels?"
No. Whenever I can avoid snow, I do so.
Wow! For me it's the opposite.

I'm NOT claiming in any fashion that the anarchist orator Schwartz I located mentioned by the French spies is necessarily our friend Israel Schwartz. Research pertaining to this is still ongoing. We're having someone in Chicago translating Der Arbeter Fraint, I hope that Tom or Lynn Cates might conceed to go through the lists of sweaters connected to William Wess, and I intend to supplicate Gareth Williams about his eventually researching Schwartz and his family in Hungary and Poland. (I've never heard of a possibility of Israel Schwartz having been Russian, but if you happen to have any such info, please feel free to come forward with it.)

Fisherman wrote:
Strange, then, donīt you think, that Catherine went to such lengths to substantiate things for Stride, as to state "I used to see her frequently in Fashion-street, where she lived..." at the inquest. Or are you suggesting that Stride spent a good deal of her time walking about in Fashion Street to create the image that ...well, that she was often in Fashion Street?
I completely agree that it's strange. My opinion is that Stride might have been engaging in some kind of activity (solliciting? sewing for the Jewish? spying for the anarchists?) and I have it in my mind to discuss this with the experienced specialists in Victorian Whitechapel (like Rob Clack).
Are we COMPLETELY sure that her and Kidney never resided on Fashion Street? The reason why I have severe doubts that Stride was two-timing Kidney – and we're talking of two-timing him as extensively as living ALSO in a different house with a different man quasi simultaneously while she shared the room with Kidney (and I'm interested in checking out the dates and timeline real thoroughly, at some point when I find some time for this) – is that noone of Stride's acquaintancies EVER mentioned anything like "She and Kidney had some problems, and sometime they fought and she left him for a while, but there was another man as well, who lived on Fashion Street“ and so on. Stride was an alcoholic and went frequently through drinking binges, and that's precisely when she left Kidney each time. I can hardly imagine that another man would have invited Stride to live with him during her strong alcoholic phases.

Fish, don't play dumb. Evidence showing that domestic killings are preceded by minor to increasing physical violence abunds. It's YOU who's formulated the theory about Stride having been a domestic killing, and you're the one to provide the required evidence. My job is to provide evidence (or at least, to research all available information) on Schwartz, BS, and Le Grand. And I'm reminded that for the latter you didn't answer my question about Danish ancestry and censuses available online. Are you interested in assisting with this? The Danish research would be invaluable pertaining to his family and financial situation.

[mariab]

Thank you, Hunter, I'll try to look it up over at the JTRForums soon. I was supposed to get up and do errands, but it's half a holiday today (well, not the shops anyway), I'm just back from a pretty intense conference, and I feel so lazy and cozy in bed after the last months of constantly chasing my venue and non stop chasing my tail to make a bunch of never ending deadlines.

[lynn cates]

fashionable

Hello Fish.

"Strange, then, donīt you think, that Catherine went to such lengths to substantiate things for Stride, as to state "I used to see her frequently in Fashion-street, where she lived..." at the inquest. Or are you suggesting that Stride spent a good deal of her time walking about in Fashion Street to create the image that ...well, that she was often in Fashion Street?"

Now you're talking! The best I can do at present is to offer that Kate, who also worked "amongst the Jews," gave her address as #6 Fashion st. Well, #5 was a Jewish soup kitchen and #7 was a certain Solomon Silver.

Could it be that both were employed by the same chap?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

MAria:

"Are we COMPLETELY sure that her and Kidney never resided on Fashion Street?"

We are completely sure that nobody has unearthed any such thing.

"The reason why I have severe doubts that Stride was two-timing Kidney – and we're talking of two-timing him as extensively as living ALSO in a different house with a different man quasi simultaneously while she shared the room with Kidney (and I'm interested in checking out the dates and timeline real thoroughly, at some point when I find some time for this) – is that noone of Stride's acquaintancies EVER mentioned anything like "She and Kidney had some problems, and sometime they fought and she left him for a while, but there was another man as well, who lived on Fashion Street“ and so on. Stride was an alcoholic and went frequently through drinking binges, and that's precisely when she left Kidney each time. I can hardly imagine that another man would have invited Stride to live with him during her strong alcoholic phases."

All of this amounts to one thing and one thing only, as far as I can see - Stride did leave Kidney for substantial periods of time, and we donīt know for certain where she lived at them times, just as we cannot tell to what extent she spent the days in a drunken stupour. Iīm sure that Kidney himself would prefer such aversion of events to one where he had been outmanouvred by another man, though.

"Fish, don't play dumb."

I seldom do.

"Evidence showing that domestic killings are preceded by minor to increasing physical violence abunds."

Aha. So here we have an introduction of the possibility of "minor" physical violence. But just how minor? Only enough, perhaps, to leave dark spots on Strideīs shoulders?
At any rate, there is no question that domestic killings sometimes occur with no other ingredient involved than the actual killing. Although violence is very often involved, there is no absolute for it to do so. Many domestic quarrels never reach beyond verbal abuse. And why would we try and suggest that a killing in such a relkationship must have gone along the lines "I am going to kill you - but not before I have beaten you up"? I could of course go looking for exapmles of this, but it would be a waste of time, I think, since I fail to see that anybody would actually be of the meaning that no domestic killing ever happened without starting off with physical beatings up. And in that assumption, I include you, Maria. If you are not comfortable with that, just say so.

"... and Le Grand. And I'm reminded that for the latter you didn't answer my question about Danish ancestry and censuses available online. Are you interested in assisting with this? The Danish research would be invaluable pertaining to his family and financial situation."

If itīs online, itīs online for anybody. If not, let me know, and Iīll try and find the time to look into it.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
The best I can do at present is to offer that Kate, who also worked "amongst the Jews," gave her address as #6 Fashion st. Well, #5 was a Jewish soup kitchen and #7 was a certain Solomon Silver.
Could it be that both were employed by the same chap?
Thank you SO much for the valuable information, Lynn. Do you have an idea if Victorian soup kitchens might have let workers also sleep/reside at the premises?
Lynn, would you consider going through the lists of sweaters, either online (for which I have the precise link) or in some fat pdf files (but not as fat as the Yiddish pdf files ofDer Arbeter Fraint) to research a possible connection between Israel Schwartz and William Wess? There's no point for me to engage in such a search, as I'll no doubt encounter tons of names of Victorian minor anarchists who I won't be able to identify from Adam.

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"Now you're talking! The best I can do at present is to offer that Kate, who also worked "amongst the Jews," gave her address as #6 Fashion st. Well, #5 was a Jewish soup kitchen and #7 was a certain Solomon Silver.
Could it be that both were employed by the same chap?"

In Kates case, we have no corroborating evidence given by anyone placing her in Fashion Street. And when she did so herself, she did it under an alias, did she not? So Iīd place a lot less money on that bet, than I would on Stride.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

sweaters

Hello Maria. I'd be delighted to.

Of course, I sent a message to Professor Fishman's institution 2 weeks ago and have received no reply. Hence, it may be difficult to find those lists.

I have found 3 cuttings about a Solomon Silver. Perhaps I should start a thread for research?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Kate

Hello Fish.

"In Kate's case, we have no corroborating evidence given by anyone placing her in Fashion Street. And when she did so herself, she did it under an alias, did she not?"

Indeed! But you may miss my point. Why did she give THAT address and why THAT alias? Most lies have a fundamentum in re; they are seldom made up out of whole cloth.

"So I'd place a lot less money on that bet, than I would on Stride."

Why an "either-or"? This may be a "both-and."

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
Iīm sure that Kidney himself would prefer such aversion of events to one where he had been outmanouvred by another man, though.
Completely with you on this, Fish.

Fisherman wrote:
I fail to see that anybody would actually be of the meaning that no domestic killing ever happened without starting off with physical beatings up. And in that assumption, I include you, Maria. If you are not comfortable with that, just say so.
Obviously I meant starting off with physical beatings and culminating to murder over some period of time, but also during the final attack. I'm not clear about what you mean about “including me“ and my “not being comfortable with that“. If you're inquiring about my having been abused, don't worry about this, not ever. (Besides infrequent semi-serious verbal abuse by bosses, boyfriends, so-called friends, crazy people on the street, as more or less everyone of us has. Besides, I'm afraid I'm the kind of gal who would hardly even notice mild physical abuse – used as I am to be crashing 12-15 feet off a halfpipe or quarterpipe wall to the ground. Not counting the – 4, I think – times I've semi-broken my nose. Plus I've boxed, and totally loved it.)
What also bothers me considerably for a domestic on Berner Street is the timeline, Fish. Seriously not enough time AFTER the BS/Schwartz incident for Schwartz to have gotten rid of BS, then (or during which) Kidney or Fashion- Street-boyfriend to materialize, start a fight with Stride, and kill her. There's hardly enough time for the Ripper to have materialized and attacked her, blitz-like, and he was an experienced killer.
As for Stride's shoulders bruises, in my opinion they don't account for enough culmination between seeing her on the street (solliciting or figthing with BS, if you will) and knifing her so clean. Even the previous JTR victims spotted evidence of having been hit on the face.

Fisherman wrote:
If not, let me know, and Iīll try and find the time to look into it.
I might need to come back to you on this in a few weeks. In case it's true that Le Grand's father was a “diplomat“ of some kind (as claimed in several press reports) I need to research this connection in Paris, together with his criminal record. I won't be back to Paris before March, so there's over 2 months to research the “Danish trace“. But obviously I need to know before March 1st.

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"Why an "either-or"?"

Mainly because of the discrepancies in corroboratory material, Lynn. But not neccessarily, no.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"Obviously I meant starting off with physical beatings and culminating to murder over some period of time, but also during the final attack."

Not agreed, Iīm afraid - although the general picture of domestic violence involves beatings, there is no way at all that we could be sure of how it would have looked in the specific situation in Dutfields yard.

"If you're inquiring about my having been abused"

That I am not. It would not be any of my business.

"What also bothers me considerably for a domestic on Berner Street is the timeline, Fish. Seriously not enough time AFTER the BS/Schwartz incident for Schwartz to have gotten rid of BS, then (or during which) Kidney or Fashion- Street-boyfriend to materialize, start a fight with Stride, and kill her. There's hardly enough time for the Ripper to have materialized and attacked her, blitz-like, and he was an experienced killer. "

Getting rid of BS would have equalled getting rid of the man who possibly lived in FAshion Street, Maria. Thatīs how I see it, at least. He tallies very well with Marshallīs man, and that means he may well have been the man who provided both flower and cachous.

"As for Stride's shoulders bruises, in my opinion they don't account for enough culmination between seeing her on the street (solliciting or figthing with BS, if you will) and knifing her so clean. Even the previous JTR victims spotted evidence of having been hit on the face. "

Then why do we not see this in the Stride case? Reasonably, he did not cut Nichols throat before beating her about the face. The same would apply in Chapmans case. So why not beat Stride about the face before cutting her - if, that is, it was the Ripper? Why the deviation? He was not interrupted - at least not if we work from the assumption that he added the throat-cut AFTER the beatings.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
I'd be delighted to.
Of course, I sent a message to Professor Fishman's institution 2 weeks ago and have received no reply. Hence, it may be difficult to find those lists.
Lynn, you're a Schatz, and a Saint. You're practically saving my life, because that's a part of the research I'm not informed enough to conduct safely.
Don't worry about Prof. Fishman presently, the internet link is
http://parlipapers.chadwyck.co.uk/marketing/index.jsp, courtesy of Debra Arif.
This is a post from Debs from November 20, 2010 on the Missing memorandum 2 thread (which got badly highjacked) (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=155337#post155337),
Debs wrote:
The {files} aren't that big but I wouldn't want to force them on anyone!!
These papers are available online to participating libraries and universities. This is a great site,which I no longer have access to it unfortunately:
http://parlipapers.chadwyck.co.uk/marketing/index.jsp
Just checking through my old computer I have the select committee papers on the sweating system cited by Chris (I think it's the same one), I have the 1890 Metropolitan Police Superanuation debate, a paper relating to prisoner visitors at Chatham, (connected to the dynamitards convicted between 1881 and 1888 and kept at this prison) and The 1888(305) Select Committee on Emigration and Immigration (Foreigners) Report, Proceedings, Minutes of Evidence (which was reproduced in part over on JTR forums) I also have debates from other years covering this same topic.
So, that's what I have, if anyone is interested in any of those just let me know .....I won't hold my breath though.

Chris wrote (on November 20, 2010):
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariab
Does Chris Phillips or anyone else here have any idea of how to research workers/sweaters in Whitechapel in the 1880s/1890s (ideally, online? I know, dare to dream).
Well, one possible source would be the Charles Booth Online Archive (http://booth.lse.ac.uk/), which has a lot of digitised information from Booth's survey.
Another would be the reports of the House of Lords Select Committee on the Sweating System (1888-1890). Those aren't available online as far as I know, but may be held by larger research libraries.

Might Tom Wescott be interested in researching this as well, as he's majorly informed in Victorian anarchists? If so, careful with Debra's pdf files! They seem to be big, and I don't want them among 5 feet of my own (pretty old) iBook. I guess if we hear about a general electricity crash in Oklahoma (California-style), we'll know why...

Lynn Cates wrote:
I have found 3 cuttings about a Solomon Silver. Perhaps I should start a thread for research?
Cool idea. I hope Rob Clack, Monty, John Bennett, Gareth Williams might have some information.
(Why do I suddenly feel kinda like a TV moderator, or, more fittingly, a Houston moderator at the space program – “Houston, we have a problem...“)