Liz Stride and the grapes

[mariab]

I'm most certainly not drunk and I haven't eaten anything since at least 12 hours.
Tom Wescott wrote:
Originally Posted by mariab
Hi Tom,
for Chapman and Eddowes I too very much suspect a robbery ruse by the assailant, as the evidence very much points that way (Chapman's missing rings, Eddowes thimble –I hope that's how you spell it, I have no clue whatsoever about sewing). But for Stride, I really don't think so.
You must be drunk or French or something because this doesn't make sense.
Sorry, but I don't get this. What is it that you're saying doesn't make sense here? I'm essentially agreeing with you pertaining to the robbery ruse, only not in Stride's case.
Tom Wescott wrote:
I haven't "changed my mind" as I never stated I BELIEVE SHE WAS DRUNK! THAT'S THE ONLY EXPLANATION! I offered it was a possible suggestion, and a very possible one it is.
Huh? Who talked about Stride having been drunk? I most certainly haven't. I didn't even ever mentioned the word “drunk“. What's up, Tom?
(I'm afraid I don't believe there's a God, but you can be king of Berner Street. Sounds like a rapper's name somehow...)

[The Grave Maurice]

You must be...French or something....

French? Don't think so. Although, Maria is definitely difficult to place. She doesn't seem to be a native English-speaker, and she's certainly not German. I'd guess that she's originally from Italy.

[mariab]

Hi Grave Maurice,
I'm actually Greek (so no wonder that sometimes what I say comes off as Greek to people), but I happen to speak Italian fluently (courtesy of being a specialist in Italian opera, among else), although I'd have to say that Italy and its temperament don't do it at all for me.
Ouch! You got the obvious non native English-speaker hint! Actually what I'm aiming for is that people not notice I'm not a native speaker in any language that I attempt speaking. It has worked in France, Germany, and the USA (especially when I'm “on“), but in the UK and Italy, fuggadaboutit!
The twisted part is, I don't think I have a “national identity“ anymore (nor do I believe in such things as “national identity“, I believe that it's becoming an elapsed concept), or a native tongue. I don't speak much Greek anymore (only with my mom and a couple of friends), and I certainly don't write often in Greek, since about a decade. English-German-French I consider more or less like my “mother tongue“. I write my diary in German, and I think to myself (or dream, when sleeping) in German or English. I feel very German for their being organized, and composed, and environmentally aware, I feel American because I don't like to dress up like the Europeans and I don't always get the British accents, I feel French because I grew up bilingual (Greek/French) and I'm deeply acquainted with French culture, mannerisms, and food, and I feel Greek because I love the ocean and read ancient Greek. I guess you might relate to this a bit yourself, being Canadian.
As it happens, my favorite person from the 19th century, the composer Giacomo Meyerbeer, was also totally like this, he left his native Berlin for an established career in Italy and Paris, and he never assumed a “national identity“, incorporating the essence of 19th century cosmopolitism. (For which Richard Wagner and some Germanophile French, like idiot Vincent d'Indy, severely attacked him in the second half of the 19th century.)
Incidentally Meyerbeer was Jewish, and this is a bit related to being Greek: Essentially what you'll get with a Greek is either a typical “Mediterranean“ in its worse clichéed embodiment (lazy, slow, and a bit of a puss'), or someone more Jewish-like (again, as a cliché), a multilingual individualist workaholic restlessly moving around the world. I'm not saying any of this is healthy, but the upside is that the latter type of individual normally manages to leave some kind of legacy in his/her field of work when they kick off...which is not a bad thing.
I'm off, I've even bored myself to death, as loooong explanations go. And I have to email my American-Jewish boss, who's at least as wacky as me, if not worse, and who never sleeps either, and emails me back instantly and like...11 times per day?

[The Grave Maurice]

Maria,

Well, so much for my attempt to be Sherlock Holmes. I never would have guessed Greek. (I should have paid more attention to the story called "The Greek Interpreter".) But, I envy your linguistic abilities as well as your adventurous and interesting life.

[mariab]

Hi Maurice,
I assume The Greek interpreter is a Sherlock Holmes story?
I guess that for a Greek linguistic abilities are non negotiable.
Adventurous life? I wish. (Although taking 2 trains tomorrow to a little town called Schwerte in western Germany in 7'' inches of snow might be fun. Especially considering Murphy's law.)
Interesting? I've been locked up since 4 days in this apartment (courtesy of a deadline), didn't even manage to bring away the trash, not to mention buying groceries. We were supposed to go out yesterday, but then that's when I managed to start writing the darn paper.
By the by, you seem to be quite the world traveller yourself, and I bet that you're living close to a lake, with your family and cats. And are retired and not job hunting 24/7 for the next gig, like almost everyone in my generation.
PS.: WOW! Did we totally highjacked this thread or what?!

[Jon Guy]

Jon Guy is a silly man. Usually has his facts wrong and then yells at you for having them right. Still thinks Stride's head was lying over a carriage wheel rut, the poor man. Be nice, but approach him with caution

Tom, you talking about me again. I don`t shout, I think it appears that way to you because you feel intimidated.

Really Tom, there`s only the Ripper himself that`s more repulsive than you in the world of Ripperology.

I won`t bother correcting Marie, but it is fun to put your bullshit to rights.

I only believe Stride`s neck was over a carriage rut because Dr Blackwell said so at the inquest. I know you haven`t read the inquest reports so forgive me cutting and pasting:

"Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut.".

When you comin to London, Tom?

[curious4]

Footnote to cashews

Going way back in my family history I can remember a mention of violet cachous, which were also supposed to perfume other (forgive me) bodily emanations. Perhaps poor Liz did have wind after all.

"Packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper" -sounds like a present to me.

Tom Wescott - please, where can I get a copy of your article? Couldn´t find it on the Casebook. My son will be going to "The Mighty Carbuncle" aka London (sorry, just love that) shortly and has promised to stock up on JTR books etc for me.

Will be leaving this thread now to the more prolific and get back to the matriarching!

[curious4]

Cashews or cachous?

Done it again, haven´t I?

I`d say it was approaching alzheimers, but was told years ago that no-one would notice the difference!

[Tom_Wescott]

The Jon Guy Factor - Please excuse

Tom, you talking about me again. I don`t shout, I think it appears that way to you because you feel intimidated.

Hi Jon, good to see you. It's fascinating you feel I could be intimidated by your knowledge of the Stride murder. Perhaps bewildering is a better word. As for how you don't shout, here's a particularly offensive post from you to me, when you popped in out of nowhere in April to "put me in my place." To my knowledge, we'd never had a disagreement prior to your outbursts on that thread. Therefore, perhaps I can be excused if you feel I have incorrectly judged you.

WRONG!! Don`t give me that rubbish about neck lying over jagged stones. Where the did you get that one from?
Get your facts right, her neck was lying over a carriage wheel rut. Her neck was raised.

Really Tom, there`s only the Ripper himself that`s more repulsive than you in the world of Ripperology.

No comment, but such talk does you no favors.

I won`t bother correcting Marie, but it is fun to put your bullshit to rights.

Who's Marie? Oh, you mean Maria? She's read your posts for herself and reached the same conclusion I and most others have, so what's to correct? As for putting my "bullshit to rights", please expound.

I only believe Stride`s neck was over a carriage rut because Dr Blackwell said so at the inquest. I know you haven`t read the inquest reports so forgive me cutting and pasting

You only "know" I haven't read the inquest reports because you yourself do not keep up with Ripperature, or else you'd be quite aware of the fact I've read about everything there is, which is how I "know" that Stride's neck was not over a carriage wheel rut. In fact, most others on the boards know this as well and I believe have told you as much, but I admire your persistance.

When you comin to London, Tom?

Another veiled threat? Why veil them, Jon. I say speak how you feel. If you're offering to meet me for a pint, I accept, but I prefer Pepsi or Mountain Dew.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom Wescott - please, where can I get a copy of your article? Couldn´t find it on the Casebook. My son will be going to "The Mighty Carbuncle" aka London (sorry, just love that) shortly and has promised to stock up on JTR books etc for me.

Hi Curious. Due to a comp crash a number of years ago I no longer have a PDF version of my articles, otherwise I'd send them along. Presently the only way I know to get them would be to purchase issues #25 and (I believe) #27 of Ripper Notes magazine through amazon.com or abe.com. Fortunately these issues have many other excellent articles to make them worthwhile if you feel my offerings to be not up to snuff.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

EVERYTHING discussed in this thread has been done to death, Observer. This is what's a bit frustrating with Ripperology.
The “packet“ of the cachous consisted of wrapped tissue. .

Hi Maria

As John Guy intimates it pays to read the testimony carefully. The Stride inquest report available here in Casebook (Daily Telegraph) has Doctor Blackwell state

"a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper"

A packet wrapped in tissue paper, not loose cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

The foreman of the jury picked up on Blackwell's statement regarding the cachous he asking

" Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?

Elizabeth Stride had no teeth on her lower left jaw, I think it's fair to assume that her oral hygine wasn't the best. It's also fair to say that in all probability she had bad breath. I think she purchased the cachous. I also think there is a distinct possibility that she arranged a meeting with a man friend on the night of her murder, and the cachous were an aid to provide a good impression upon her new amour.

The SOLE significance of the cachous to us (and by “us“ I mean Ripperology) is that the cachous testify to Stride having died very abruptly and quickly through asphyxiation (from her cut jugular), after possibly having been incapacitated by a stranglehold before she was brought to the ground

Which is at odds with the Schwartz observation, he describing a longer drawn out assault. The foreman of the jury saw the problem with the Schwartz statement regarding the cachous, he asking

" Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?"

O

[Tom_Wescott]

As John Guy intimates it pays to read the testimony carefully. The Stride inquest report available here in Casebook (Daily Telegraph) has Doctor Blackwell state

"a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper"

A packet wrapped in tissue paper, not loose cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

The foreman of the jury picked up on Blackwell's statement regarding the cachous he asking

" Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?

Hi Observer. What Jon Guy DOESN'T intimate and what you've failed to do is consider the many sources OUTSIDE of the Daily Telegraph coverage of the inquest. It's a very newbie thing to do to quote the DT inquest and treat it like gospel. It's also insulting to those of us who have actually made a real study of this case to have you suggest we HAVEN'T done our homework when in reality it is you who hasn't. I don't mean to be personal, but you knowingly stepped into the middle of something, so there it is. The cachous were loose, hence they spilled when her hand was open. And her neck was over the jagged rocks of the gutter. This is about as common knowledge as Stride's surname.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Hi Observer. What Jon Guy DOESN'T intimate and what you've failed to do is consider the many sources OUTSIDE of the Daily Telegraph coverage of the inquest. It's a very newbie thing to do to quote the DT inquest and treat it like gospel. It's also insulting to those of us who have actually made a real study of this case to have you suggest we HAVEN'T done our homework when in reality it is you who hasn't. I don't mean to be personal, but you knowingly stepped into the middle of something, so there it is. The cachous were loose, hence they spilled when her hand was open. And her neck was over the jagged rocks of the gutter. This is about as common knowledge as Stride's surname.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

On the contrary, I checked three other newspapers, including the Times, they all mentioned a packet of cachous. Ok, you've done the research, where does it say that the cachous were wrapped in tissue, that is a report which specifically states that the cachous were held in place solely by a piece of tissue.

Moreover, the cachous could still have spilled even if they were in a packet covered in tissue.

O

[The Grave Maurice]

I assume The Greek interpreter is a Sherlock Holmes story?

Yes, indeed it is.

...I bet that you're living close to a lake, with your family and cats. And are retired and not job hunting 24/7 for the next gig....

Not bad. Although saying that a Canadian probably lives close to a lake is like saying that an Englishman probably lives close to a pub: pretty much a given. Retired is a good guess because of my age, but I'm an academic. In most jobs, when you're too old, and tired, and sick, and stupid to work, they put you out to pasture, whereas the exact opposite is true in academe (credit, with slight variations, Beyond the Fringe). And, because of the miracle of tenure, you don't have to worry about a new gig unless you want one. I'm impressed with your cat guess, though. After twenty years of our children having a variety of pets, we are, at the moment, the servants of two cats. Well done.

Did we totally highjacked this thread or what?!

Yep, we did. So we should stop now.

[Observer]

How were cachous dispensed at place of purchase? In my experience albeit 70 years after the murder of Liz Stride, they were dispensed in small paper packets. Now in 1888 cachous may well have been dispensed in pieces of tissue, but how would the tissue be secured to contain the cachous ? Twisting the tissue to contain the cachous would work, but wouldn't a paper packet be more appropriate? Of course Liz Stride could have bought a paper packet of cachous, and put some into a piece of tissue prior to going out that evening.

Either way I believe Stride purchased those cachous, and it has a direct bearing on her what she was up to on the night of her murder

O