Liz Stride and the grapes

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
You're confusing matters. According to the police (see Ultimate) Le Grand was jointly employed by the WVC and the press, in this particular case the Evening News. But the WVC was not, to my knowledge, receiving money from the Evening News.
Thank you very much for clarifying, Tom. Unfortunately (on a very quick search, as I'm sitting on writing a conference paper on deadline to be delivered in 3 days) I was unable to locate any of this in The Ultimate, the index of which features ONLY 1 mention for Le Grand (which then refers just a few of the known facts about Packer's testimony etc.) and NO entry whatsoever for The Evening News. At some point later I'll go through all the Ultimate references to the WVC. I realize that you don't have your books available at work, but if (later, whenever you manage, with no haste at all) you could direct me to the origin of the information in the lit about Le Grand having been employed at The Evening News (as a “researcher“?), I would be endlessly grateful. Because I've been hearing about this on the threads, but with no direct corroboration whatsoever, and it's a bit frustrating.

Tom Wescott wrote:
We don't actually know for sure what Le Grand's birth name was. We also don't know for sure that his father was a Danish diplomat, although Le Grand's higher education and bearing suggest that he was born and raised in some sort of affluent circumstance.
About the birth name, we can certainly look in Danish censuses, and perhaps Fisherman might be of help in this. (Even I can understand Danish, which is much easier than Swedish to read, if in not too specific a context.) But I'm confused: Might I inquire how you got on the suggestion that Le Grand's father might have been a diplomat? Did you find a Nelson/Nielson family like this in some census? I'm particularly insisting on Nelson/Nielsen the diplomat due to some findings I have from Paris about a Danish journalist, Jules Hansen, engaged in conservative politics and tight with both the Ministery of Interior in Paris and with Piòtr Rachkovsky (of Okhrana fame) when Rachkosky was in Paris. Hansen was the one who introduced Rachkovsky to French governmental circles in Paris. I'd be VERY interested in researching the eventuality of a Nelson/Nielsen trace in Paris (for which, obviously, Danish censuses and perhaps archives require to be researched first). And I'm NOT necessarily expecting that there was such a trace in reality. But it'll be nice to find out if one existed.
Also, what do you know about Le Grand's higher education? I for myself certainly noticed the sophisticated level in which he expressed himself in English in his threat letters to the elderly affluent London ladies. And he allegently spoke English, French, and German. (Although the latter is a piece of cake for a Dane.)
A last thing I wanted to add is that Briscony/Brisconi is a possible derivative and play on the Italian word “briccone“ which means “ruffian“, and which was very WIDELY used in the 19th century, more than today. Just a thought.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. This isn't exactly a Le Grand thread, so let's not stay on that topic too long. But most of what we know of the man comes from the press, and this includes the information that his father was a Danish diplomat. But this information has not been confirmed by any other source to date.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Tom,
apologies for having talked about this on this thread, and I'll keep you posted per email if I find further info. (Which won't happen for a while, ‘cause, busy otherwise.)

[Adam Went]

Maria:

Perhaps you should read my posts properly before making false accusations, I never said that there was a grapestalk found WITH or ON Liz Stride's body, there was not - but there was talk of a grapestalk being discovered in the drain grate in the passageway entering into Dutfield's Yard a couple of days later, which, if it did exist, almost certainly was unrelated to Liz, it's just an interesting point - I think Tom has covered the rest pretty well.

Cheers,
Adam.

[caz]

Le Grand took this to be true (That Stride was holding grapes)...

Of course, if Le Grand had also been Pipeman, and Stride's killer, it would follow that he had no idea that she wasn't holding grapes when he approached her and drew his weapon, and assumed afterwards that she must have had some in her hand the whole time, without his knowledge, and was still holding them after he cut her throat and the life drained out of her.

This means he had to overpower her very quickly, for example, or she would have used her hands to try and save herself and he would have known they were grapeless. Equally, there could have been no preamble of any sort, following BS man's rough treatment of her - no introductions, no soothing words, no offering of cachous, no negotiating for sex, or again he'd have been aware that she was not holding grapes at the time. So I'm wondering how he managed to creep up on her without her knowing he was even there.

We can be sure of one thing - she didn't offer to hold Le Grand's plums.

Love,

Caz
X

[curious4]

Liz Stride - grapes, flower

Well, to sum it up, having CAREFULLY read through all I can get hold of, the evidence does seem to point to blood clots being mistaken for grapes - although Phillips seems to be the only one who refers to blood clots on the hand - otherwise they are referred to as smears of blood. At the crime scene Blackwell states that there was no talk of grapes then and there. Thanks for the grapestalk, Adam, a crumb of comfort but, as you say, probably nothing to do with Liz. And I suppose I have to give Inspector Reid the red rose, although Spooner talks of a red and white flower.

As for Packer; prematurely aged and confused (know the feeling) again most probably lying, although you have to grant me the fact that the police weren´t too happy with him and if he was bullied possibly became even more confused. Not so confused, though, that he didn´t grossly overcharge for his grapes: "half a pound 3d". I recently came across a wonderful book called "London is London", which contains contemporary verse and prose from the Middle Ages up to the 1940s - it begins with a poem praising London, from about 1501, referring to London as the "Most myghty carbuncle", which seems unfair if New York is the Big Apple. Probably had another meaning then!
Anyway, to the point. There is a description of a Saturday Night Market from the 1860s which refers to street cries, among others, "Twopence a pound, grapes"!

To finish, nothing disproves my theory that, if there were grapes, it was not necessarily Liz who ate them!

P.S. Scandinavia, Maria

[Tom_Wescott]

Grapes and Blood clots

Well, to sum it up, having CAREFULLY read through all I can get hold of, the evidence does seem to point to blood clots being mistaken for grapes - although Phillips seems to be the only one who refers to blood clots on the hand - otherwise they are referred to as smears of blood.

In a long article covering just about every aspect of the grapes, I discussed these clots. I believe Phillips called them 'oblong clots' (or oblong something), and their positioning suggests they were transferred by finger tips. It is my considered belief that Dr. Blackwell's assistant, Edward Johnston, unknowingly transferred blood from Stride's neck wound to her wrist. We know that he was the first medical man on the scene (although he was not a doctor), and that he felt the neck for a pulse, undid the top buttons on her blouse, and felt the wrist for a pulse. It was in this maneuvering that he transferred the blood. The witnesses prior to this (including Edward Spooner who was in a position to see) did not observe any blood near Stride's hands, but all the witnesses following Johnston's examination did observe the blood.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Blood clots

Yes, that does seem very logical, thanks! I see I have much left to read - and am looking forward to it!

[mariab]

To Adam Went:
I was surprised that you mentioned the grapestalk being discovered in the drain grate in the passageway entering into Dutfield's Yard a day after the murder (not a couple of days later), without mentioning the 2 private detectives at all, thus not mentioning at all the massive credibility problems pertaining to the “discovered“ grape stalk.

[mariab]

To Caz:
It doesn't appear that Stride's assailant offered her the cachous himself. In fact, all evidence speaks for a blitz-attack.
To Curious:
Another Scandinavian, cool! There are a couple of Swedes and one Finn on casebook already, plus an Englishman residing in Norway.(And I'm going to Iceland in May, Reykjavik for a conference, and hopefully Sneffels for riding, depending on the situation with global warming...)

[Hunter]

This is part of Fanny Mortimer's press statement as printed in the Daily News, Oct. 1. - Casebook Press Reports

"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets."

She claimed to be one of the first on the scene (she lived at No. 36), probably arriving before Johnson. Did she see blood spots? Was she lying?.. or is it possible that the spots were from Stride herself raising her hand to her throat in reflex, getting the blood on it then?

This was Diemshitz's press statement on the same day.

"She had dark clothes on, and wore a black crape bonnet. Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other."

Of course the subject of grapes was brought up during the inquest with suddenly, no recollection of grapes.

[mariab]

Hello Hunter,
I'm glad that you're contributing to this thread, as we're much in need of your sound judgment and impartial reasoning.
Since it's an ascertained fact that there were no grapes, we can only assume that Fanny Mortimer was erroneous in the same fashion as Louis Diemshitz in his second sighting of the body, with both having mistaken the blood stains on Stride's right hand as grapes. Most possibly the witnesses' talking with each other influenced each other's opinions. As for the timeline, a lot of witnesses claimed to have been the first at the scene, and not all of them were. It appears that IWEC members/residents Diemshitz and Kozebrodski were the very first at the scene, joined by local Jewish kid Abraham Hoshberg and Edward Spooner, then came PC Lamb, immediately followed by Dr. Johnston. Then the gates were shut. I have great difficulty imagining a scenario in which Fanny Mortimer was at the scene before PC Lamb.
For some time I too (as others, Lynn Cates for instance) pondered over the possibility of Stride having contaminated herself by having touched her throat after having been cut by her assailant, but then I thought about it medicinally, asked several doctors, and it's physically impossible for someone with a cut and profusely bleeding jugular, dying in less than 3' minutes by asphyxiation (instead of blood loss) to be able to move his/her right hand all the distance to the throat. Especially since the left hand clutched the cachous tightly, which insinuates either death by asphyxiation or attempted strangulation before Stride reached the ground – or, most probably, both. Dave (Protohistorian) and I have discussed this thoroughly in Lynn Cates' recent Liz Stride reenactment thread, coming to the same conclusions.
I've been thinking about it since months, but I honestly can't conceive of a plausible scenario where the blood stains materialized, other than what Tom Wescott imagined.
And by the way, there are several points in which I disagree with Tom.
1) Unlike Tom, I don't believe that Stride had fainted when she reached the ground. In that case her hands would have relaxed, and she would have let the cachous fall. In my opinion, Stride was incapacitated by a stranglehold, brought swiftly to the ground on her stomach, then came the cut to her throat, while her assailant lifted her head by her scarf. All postmortem evidence points to this.
2) Specifically in Stride's case I don't see at all Tom's scenario of bogus robbery having taken place, as in the assailant having asked Stride to empty her pockets and her getting out the cachous “by accident“, mixed up with her money. In that case, she might have rather come up with the buttons which were still found in her pocket post mortem, loose and intact. The cachous were NOT loose in her pocket, but wrapped up in some tissue. Thus, it's clear that Stride deliberately took the cachous out before being attacked, either while she was still alone (implying a blitz-approach and attack), or while comfortably conversing with her assailant (implying an approach for business, followed by a blitz-attack). No robbery took place.
It's rather very simple, really, if one sticks to the evidence left at the scene.

[Addy]

Hi Maria,

I misread one of your post, thinking you meant Paul Beggs book in one of your posts as containing misconceptions because he considers Kosminski as a suspect. Begg considers Kosminski a prime suspect too in his book, so I thought that perhaps "biased" his explanation about Le Grands role in your eyes. Hence the sorry, no disrespect meant to Begg, he is one of my favorite Ripperologists, sorry to hear he is ill.

Greetings,

Addy

[mariab]

Hi Addy,
no problem at all. I think he's much better now, he recently attended a conference in Whitechapel and posts regularly.

[Addy]

I'm glad to hear it. He seems very sympathetic.

Greetings,

Addy