Liz Stride and the grapes

[mariab]

Wolf Vanderlinden gave the information about Stride's flower being “a red rose backed by a maidenhair fern” (as evidenced on the 4th day of the inquest) twice in this thread. And he is correct.
A useful reference book would be The Ultimate JTR – an illustrated encyclopedia by Stewart P. Evans and Keith Skinner, Skyhorse Publishing 2009 (in its paperback edition), available at amazon also from second hand sellers.
I wouldn't recommend to a newbie the other reference book, JTR A-Z in its current editions, as it contains a host of errors. It's best to wait until a new, hopefully corrected paperback edition comes out.
It's not a bad idea to also acquire Philip Sugden's book either (in its revised new edition from 2002). Sugden's book doesn't contain any errors, although a couple (rare) misconceptions. And it too is available at amazon from second hand sellers. (I got my second hand copy from an amazon seller in Illinois for $5, and it's in an impeccable state and looks completely unused.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Sugden's book doesn't contain any errors, although a couple (rare) misconceptions.

Yikes! Hope John Malcolm isn't reading this thread.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
The “rare misconceptions“ part referred (among else) to Sugden's bias pertaining to Robert Anderson and Aaron Kozminski as a suspect, hence it was referring to John Malcolm as well.

[Addy]

I always understood that Le Grand was not trustworthy, having impersonated different persons with different occupations and has actually done some jail time at one point or another.

I also didn't say that any grapes or their stalks were found on, near or in Stride's stomach. I said it was CLAIMED that this was the case. I may be a newbie on the site, that doesn't mean I haven't read a lot about it for years. (not claiming to be an expert, but no newbie either).

As in all the murders, a lot of stories were circulating and even more came from hearsay. So it could very well be that some facts got muddled up with the fiction.

Greetings,

Addy

[mariab]

It's all in how one perceives it. I most definitely consider myself a newbie (despite having started conducting Ripperological research recently).

[curious4]

Liz Stride - red rose

Wolf, I shall crawl back into my igloo in shame - I should have read on.
Put it down to freezing brain syndrome - it´s minus 12C here!

[mariab]

Minus 12°C?! Where you're at? (If you don't mind the intrusive question.) It's just a bit over zero in Berlin, Germany, but it doesn't feel cold (yet).

[Tom_Wescott]

The Grape Story

Here's the short version of what most likely happened:

Diemschutz mistook the blood clots on Stride's hand to be grapes and mentioned this to a reporter. Le Grand took this to be true (That Stride was holding grapes) and paid Packer to say he sold grapes to Stride and the man, which Packer did. Le Grand, who "found" the grapestalk in the drain, was of course the one who put it there. Le Grand is also the person who who the famous Evening News article which "broke" the grape story. Once Packer had to face police interrogation alone, without Le Grand to bolster the tale, he was not able to keep his facts straight and it became clear to the police that they were being lied to.

As Addy correctly observed, Le Grand was a career criminal with numerous arrests and a documented history of (among other things) paying people to lie to the police or in court to keep him out of trouble. There's little question but that's what he did in this case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
I apologize for (slightly) highjacking this thread (which by now is already established as one of my favorite habits), but have you got any hard evidence of The Evening News having contributed financially to the WVC? I keep hearing that this newspaper was helping to pay for Le Grand's and Batchelor's “detective work“. Can I inquire about how exactly?
Also, it appears that Christian Nelson/Nielsen (which is the birth name of Charles Le Grand) came from a wealthy Danish family and that his father held a “respectable position in the Danish diplomatic service“? I've been wondering, has anyone looked if Nelson/Nielsen senior was ever on “diplomatic service“ in Paris or London? And has anyone researched Le Grand's bank records in London, to see if he ever received any money from his well-off family? I hear that Victorian bank records are a hell of a pain in the butt to get available in London, but Rob Clack promised to help with this.
I only know about the possibilty of researching bookkeeping and bankruptcies in The Official Receiver and in The London Gazzette, where all bankruptcies were (and still are) reported in the UK. Chris Scott and Monty have researched George Lusk's bookkeeping and self-proclaimed bankruptcy in these specialized newspapers, and there's even a casebook thread about this in General discussions.

[Addy]

Hi Maria,

You can find something about it in JtR the Facts by (sorry) Paul Begg, Scotland Yard investigates and the Ultimate Sourcebook.
One of these three has quite a bit about Le Grand and his role in the Packer story (or his suspected role I should say)

Greetings,

Addy

[mariab]

Hi Addy,
I own both The Ultimate (as quoted in my post #16 in this thread) and SY investigates. As for JtR the facts, it contains a few errors, though not as many as the A-Z.
Incidentally I happen to know a lot about Le Grand and his role in the Packer story (NOT his suspected role, but his evidenced role), as I happen to be researching the guy, among else.

[Tom_Wescott]

I apologize for (slightly) highjacking this thread (which by now is already established as one of my favorite habits), but have you got any hard evidence of The Evening News having contributed financially to the WVC? I keep hearing that this newspaper was helping to pay for Le Grand's and Batchelor's “detective work“. Can I inquire about how exactly?

You're confusing matters. According to the police (see Ultimate) Le Grand was jointly employed by the WVC and the press, in this particular case the Evening News. But the WVC was not, to my knowledge, receiving money from the Evening News.

Also, it appears that Christian Nelson/Nielsen (which is the birth name of Charles Le Grand) came from a wealthy Danish family and that his father held a “respectable position in the Danish diplomatic service“? I've been wondering, has anyone looked if Nelson/Nielsen senior was ever on “diplomatic service“ in Paris or London?

We don't actually know for sure what Le Grand's birth name was. We also don't know for sure that his father was a Danish diplomat, although Le Grand's higher education and bearing suggest that he was born and raised in some sort of affluent circumstance.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Addy wrote:
You can find something about it in JtR the Facts by (sorry) Paul Begg
Just wanted to clarify that the fact that Paul Begg rarely posts on casebook vs. at the JTRForums doesn't mean at all that we don't respect him and are fond of him as a very eminent Ripperologist and author of several influential books. He's currently discussing (on casebook) the eventuality of making the entire Aberconway version publicly available, and the fact that the new A-Z edition turned up with an unfortunate amount of errors due to lack of editing is connected to Mr Begg's recently declining health. There's the possibility of a paperback edition of the A-Z, corrected and edited by a team of experienced Ripperologists (including Paul Begg), so that this extremely IMPORTANT reference book gets available in the best form possible, as it deserves.

[Tom_Wescott]

and the fact that the new A-Z edition turned up with an unfortunate amount of errors due to lack of editing is connected to Mr Begg's recently declining health.

But the book had two healthy authors, which is twice as many as most books have? In any event, the paperback A-Z with the corrections will of course be a must have. And what does any of this have to do with Abby merely noting that The Facts (not A-Z) discusses Le Grand?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
And what does any of this have to do with Abby merely noting that The Facts (not A-Z) discusses Le Grand?
Tom,
it was a response to Addy's (not Abby's as in Abby Normal, this is another person) insinuating {quote Addy “You can find something about it in JtR the Facts by (sorry) Paul Begg“ unquote} as in her post #25 and as I quoted her in my answering in post #28. My response was referring to Addy needing she should apologize for mentioning Paul Begg here.