Liz Stride and the grapes

[curious4]

Why does everyone assume that Packer was lying because no grapes were found in her stomach. There is a possibility of another scenario: JTR `"Have some grapes m`dear". Liz "No thanks dearie, they give me wind, I`d much rather have some cachous, you eat them".

Perhaps Packer did make it up, or was persuaded that he had sold grapes to JTR, but it was not altogether without danger to himself if JTR thought he could identify him and I should think that not just women were afraid of him.


"The great advantage of telling the truth is that nobody believes you" Dorothy Sayers

[Addy]

Hi all,

I thought Packer's story was also discounted because it didn't tally with the facts. He told a different story a couple of times and the time he said he closed his shop wasn't correct either, comparing it to the time it was raining etc.

Greetings,

Addy

[curious4]

Liz Stride - Packer

To be honest, I think several of the witnesses changed their stories - and he was an elderly man. One thing which struck me was that he said that Liz had "a geranium-like flower pinned to her dress" and the Victorians often used geraniums as buttonholes, something not common these days. The doctor reports her as having a bunch of flowers pinned to her dress and I have also seen it reported as a rose with maidenhair fern, but I think even Londoners would have recognised a rose and called it one.

[Addy]

Very true, however his testimony was mostly discarded because of the time differences.

Greetings,

Addy

[Adam Went]

Well, there was apparently a grape stalk found in the drain of the passageway of Dutfield's Yard when it was searched.

Perhaps, like other instances, there are elements of truth intermingled with exaggeration/lies....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Addy]

Hi Adam,

I think you are right. It is the same as with the flower, some say it was red, others white and red, or two flowers, white and red. It was also said that flower petals were found in the gutter and others don't mention the flower(s) at all.

The same goes for the grape story: it has been claimed that she had grapes in her hand, that a stalk had been found and grape seeds.

Greetins,

Addy

[The Grave Maurice]

...and he was an elderly man.

Not all that elderly. Packer was born in 1831 so, in September 1888, he would have been 56 or 57. He was a year younger than Chief Constable Adolphus Frederick Williamson (who, admittedly, died the next year but that was because of long-standing heart condition).

[mariab]

Addy and Curious,
you might consider reading issue 2 of the electronic magazine Casebook Examiner, issue #25 of Ripper Notes (available to read at google Books), or the various Stride threads on casebook, particularly the threads mentioning “the grapestalk“ in their title. There is significant research ongoing pertaining to this question, and some very interesting and insightful hypothesis formulated.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Actually, Inspector Reid stated at the inquest that he had gone to the mortuary and taken a description of Stride's clothing and that she had a "red rose backed with a maidenhair fern" fastened on the right side of her jacket.

Packer told a couple of different stories about the flower he claimed to have seen and this was after word of Stride being seen with a flower already had made the papers.

Wolf.

[Adam Went]

Addy:

Yes, exactly. That's of course not to say that the grape stalk was Liz's, that's a bit of a stretch but it's certainly a curious coincidence - it could even have been that Packer had served Liz some grapes earlier in the night (bear in mind that she had sixpence when she left her lodgings, which she didn't have when she was searched - and she hadn't been drinking), and then sensing an opportunity, Packer changed this to his having served her AND the killer.....who knows? It's just a matter of trying to sort the threads of truth from the piles of fiction.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

There was NO grape stalk found at the murder scene with Stride's body, NO grape seeds or grape flesh in Stride's stomach. The contents of her stomach consisted of cheese, potatoes, and farinaceous powder. Plus, Stride was definitely drinking in the night of September 30, 1888. One day after the murder, 2 sisters (Ms Harstein and Ms Rosenfield, residing at 14, Berner Street) claimed that they allegedly saw “a bloody grapestalk and a scattered natural white flower“ lying around at the murder scene – a statement which strongly contrasts with the evidence produced at the Stride inquest. Incidentally, the 2 sisters and Packer were brought forward by the 2 WCV detectives, Charles Le Grand and J.H. Batchelor, while Le Grand subsequently produced a grapestalk, allegedly discovered by him on the street the day after the murder. There is no doubt whatsoever pertaining to the lack of credibility of Packer's, the sisters', and the 2 detectives' statements.
If “it's just a matter of trying to sort the threads of truth from the piles of fiction“, I'm surprised that Adam Went does not inform newbies of the established facts pertaining to the Berner Street murder.

[curious4]

Liz Stride, Packerīs age etc etc

Hello all,

I must apologise for not checking Packerīs true age - was basing my assumption on Donald Swansonīs report from 30th Sept. 1888. I suppose, though, that in Whitechapel in the 1880s 57 WAS elderly, unlike today, when men and women in their sixties are still in their prime! Apart from the occasional twinge, that is! I also think that there is a possibility that Packerīs evidence was discounted because of his involvement with the private detectives - that canīt have gone down well with the police detectives.

Anna, the whole point was that JTR, if they bought the grapes, could have eaten them, not Liz. I do accept that no evidence of grapes was found in Lizīs stomach, but wanted to point out that there is another possibility, however remote. Her handkerchief was said to have fruit stains - perhaps she was feeding him in what she thought was a romantic way, poor thing.

Sorry, but as far as I can see Inspector Reid didnīt give evidence at the inquest - he was there as an observer and able to ask questions if it would help the police find the murderer. Havenīt found anything about him saying that the flower was a rose - I think most people would have recognised a rose and the doctor refers to it as "a bunch of flowers".

Following on from this - is there any book which just gives the facts, the whole facts and nothing but? As in: LIz Stride wasa wearing a rose/ a geranium/a bunch of grapes. All mine seem to differ, and even the one which purports to give only the true facts seems to be tainted with the authorīs opinions.

[curious4]

Liz and the grapes

Profound apologies, Anna, meant Maria!

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi curious4.

Sorry, but as far as I can see Inspector Reid didnīt give evidence at the inquest - he was there as an observer and able to ask questions if it would help the police find the murderer. Havenīt found anything about him saying that the flower was a rose - I think most people would have recognised a rose and the doctor refers to it as "a bunch of flowers"

Actually Inspector Reid did give evidence on the fourth day of the inquest – Friday, 5 October, 1888. His testimony was reported in full in some of the newspapers at the time:

“The deceased had on an old black skirt, dark brown velvet body, a long black jacket trimmed with black fur, fastened on the right side, with a red rose backed by a maidenhair fern.”
The Daily Telegraph, Saturday, October 6, 1888, Page 3.

“Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose.”
The Times, Saturday, October 6, 1888.

Wolf.

[Tom_Wescott]

Following on from this - is there any book which just gives the facts, the whole facts and nothing but? As in: LIz Stride wasa wearing a rose/ a geranium/a bunch of grapes. All mine seem to differ, and even the one which purports to give only the true facts seems to be tainted with the authorīs opinions.

Unfortunately, no there is not. Maria is correct in that there was no grapes sold and Packer's testimony was fiction. Although in his fifties, Packer was described by the police as elderly, so we can assume this is the impression he gave. He was not a good liar.

I'm surprised that Adam Went does not inform newbies of the established facts pertaining to the Berner Street murder.

I don't blame him for not doing so. Perhaps he's learned from my lesson.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott