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Liz Stride and the grapes

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  • Caz wrote:
    Incidentally, I read somewhere recently that Packer didn’t only sell fruit, but sweetmeats as well. If so, it’s at least possible that Stride’s cachous came from him - loose from a jar or tin and wrapped in paper to form a cone, or 'packet'. For anyone still not sure what this meant, a Victorian ‘packet’ does not translate neatly into the modern sense of a packet of sweets. This was no cellophane roll of Parma Violets, or pack of Opal Fruits, off a production line.
    If Stride bought them herself (with some of her sixpence) and was alone at the time, it would explain how Packer recognised her at the mortuary, after seeing Eddowes and admitting that she rang no bells with him. He could hardly mention it after telling a tall story consisting of a one-off later sighting of the dead woman being treated to grapes by a potential suspect.

    Interesting theory, but it contains too much coincidence. Surely Packer could have mentioned Stride buying both grapes and cachous.
    Jane Coram in a previous post in this thread explained the nature of the “packet“ matter, even adding a drawing.
    There is very strong evidence speaking against Stride having been a robbery, as in the fact that she was holding the cachous loose, as if she was about to ingest them when she got attacked, but the buttons and other belongings were still in her pockets, untouched. In other words, totally different evidence from Buck's Row and Mitre Square, where the robbery scenario appears as very plausible.
    Best regards,
    Maria

    Comment


    • Hi all,

      To get back to those grapes, if I remember correctly, Packer said the man asked the woman what type of grapes she wanted and she said Black. Stride never ate any grapes. Wouldn't it be strange that the man bought the grapes for her and then she wouldn't touch them? If the timing is correct, there was some time between the buying of the grapes and the murder, so enough time would have elapsed for her to eat grapes if they were for her. And if they were intended for her companion, why would he ask her what type of grapes she wanted?

      The only thing I can think of is that she tasted one and it tasted bad so she spit the entire thing out. Perhaps that was also why she had the cachous in her hand, to get rid of the taste?

      All just my speculations of course!

      Greetings,

      Addy

      Comment


      • Packer was a grocer. He sold a lot besides grapes, but mainly fruits and veggies. The grapes were on display on or near his window which faced the sidewalk.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Comment


        • Addy,
          please don't overexert yourself trying to figure it out, there were NO grapes whatsoever (but the stalk placed/claimed to have been found by Le Grand on the day after the murder, as explained in the first pages of this thread). If Stride had eaten grapes, they would have been visible in her stomach's contents. So please, remember: no grapes.
          A recent find that makes this case more complicated is that a Schwartz (no first name) talked at a couple socialist meetings at the Vonderhall in February 1905. One of Schwartz's speeches was preceded by a Russian socialist who was tight with William Wess. Anyone becoming aware of the possibilities/consequences?! ;-)
          Of course, we could even hypothesize that Israel Schwartz met William Wess for the very first time thanks to Schwartz witnessing the events with Pipeman and BS. (Yeah, right.)
          It's much too early to say as I'm still researching this, but I have to confess I'm starting having doubts if there was EVER a Pipeman and BS.
          Best regards,
          Maria

          Comment


          • what would be in her stomach if she peeled the grapes?

            Comment


            • Maria:

              "A recent find that makes this case more complicated is that a Schwartz (no first name) talked at a couple socialist meetings at the Vonderhall in February 1905."

              This is interesting - keep up the good work! Where was the Vonderhall situated?

              The best,
              Fisherman

              Comment


              • Hi Maria,

                I KNOW there were no grapes, that's why I wrote the message. Packer's story doesn't keep up with the facts.

                Greetings

                Addy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mariab View Post
                  Interesting theory, but it contains too much coincidence. Surely Packer could have mentioned Stride buying both grapes and cachous.
                  Unwise though, Maria, if he only added the sweetmeats detail after being shown Stride's body and thinking "Well I never! I did see this one - on her own buying cachous". She must have got them from someone in the general vicinity and Packer did plump for the right dead body second time round, despite supposedly not seeing either one alive. Also, if he really had been totally full of shite, you'd think he would have said "Yes, that's her" when shown the first one, Eddowes. If he was smart enough to know they were testing him, how come he was daft enough to do Le Grand's dirty work to start with?

                  No answers from Tom yet, I see. I can't even hear the mental cogs turning.

                  Jane Coram in a previous post in this thread explained the nature of the “packet“ matter, even adding a drawing.
                  Yes, I could hardly have missed it but thanks. I did say that my comments were for anyone 'still' not sure what a packet probably meant in this context.

                  In other words, totally different evidence from Buck's Row and Mitre Square, where the robbery scenario appears as very plausible.
                  Buck's Row? Or did you mean Hanbury?

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X

                  PS By the way Addy, there were no grapes.
                  Last edited by caz; 12-16-2010, 12:11 PM.
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • Hi all,

                    How common was the name Schwartz back then among the immigrants? Without a first name (and perhaps even with one) it might be difficult to know for sure it is the same man.

                    Caz, you're kidding me! No grapes?

                    Greetings,

                    Addy

                    Comment


                    • Evilina wrote:
                      what would be in her stomach if she peeled the grapes?

                      Even if she had peeled the grapes and spitten out the seeds, the grapes' flesh would have been visible inside her stomach for up to 5-6 hours after having ingested it. The digestive process can be quicker or slower from individual to individual, and it gets to slower down to a halt if the individual in question is active or stressed. The most qualified person to consult about medical matters here on casebook is Protohistorian.

                      Fisherman wrote:
                      Where was the Vonderhall situated?

                      Debra Arif tells me that the Wonderhall (called Vonderhall by the Jewish) was a well-known venue for boxing matches in Victorian London. (I thought that might interest you, Fish, since I seem to recall that you used to box.) As for its exact location, I'll have to ask Debs about this.
                      By the by, Fish, the red snapper and other fish yesterday was yummy, but it took FOREVER to get grilled in the oven, and there was a little accident with some of it falling to the floor. Which resulted in my finally cleaning said kitchen floor (for Xmas).

                      Addy wrote:
                      How common was the name Schwartz back then among the immigrants? Without a first name (and perhaps even with one) it might be difficult to know for sure it is the same man.

                      This was precisely my very first reaction. But Rob Clack says that he located only about 4 dozens Schwartzes in the 1891 census, while Chris Phillips has located even less in the 1901 census. Not all of them were in the right age. I'm working on this (also researching Schwartz as an anarchist orator in the press in 1904-1905) and I don't intend to come to conclusions without serious evidence, still, it's already telling that Israel Schwartz in 1888 AND no-first-name-Schwartz in 1905 appear to have been BOTH acquainted with William Wess. What is the statistical probability of this?!

                      To Caz:
                      Caz, somehow I doubt it that Stride bought her cachous from Packer on September 30, 1888.
                      Apologies, I meant of course Hanbury Street, not Buck's Row.
                      Best regards,
                      Maria

                      Comment


                      • Fish,
                        for more information on the Wonderhall, see Debra Arif's post #92 in Lynn Cates' Kaufmann thread.
                        Best regards,
                        Maria

                        Comment


                        • Thanks for that, Maria!

                          The best,
                          Fisherman

                          Comment


                          • Hi Maria,

                            You are right, the statistical probabilities are small. On the other hand, if certain names are popular at a certain time, you will encounter it a lot.
                            Think about Elizabeth and Mary and James in Britain and Jan and Piet in the Netherlands where I live. Sometimes the name occured so often in one family, that people used nicknames to distinguish them from each other. And if someone was a family friend, he could have known more than one person of the same name.

                            Still, you know more about this than I do, so I await your conclusions.

                            Greetings,

                            Addy

                            Comment


                            • Hi all,

                              I've also posted a thread on the book discussion section of the message boards, but have any of you already read Colin Kendell's book? He claims Packer's story was altered by the police and that Elizabeth did eat the grapes but the fact was covered up by the police. They did this to hide the embarrasing fact that two detectives (one of them Le Grand) found they grape stalk they had allowed to be swept away with the dirt.

                              According to Kendell, Stride hade cachous in her left hand and grapes in the right hand. How's that for a middle road? I'm still not sure wether to finish the book or put it away.

                              Greetings,

                              Addy

                              Comment


                              • Addy,
                                nothing Colin Kendell has to say about Ripperology should be given any consideration. For a discussion of Kendell (by noone less than SPE), let me direct you to the Dear Boss thread (I think it was).
                                Best regards,
                                Maria

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