Liz Stride and the grapes

[Jon Guy]

And her neck was over the jagged rocks of the gutter. This is about as common knowledge as Stride's surname.
Tom Wescott

Daily News
United Kingdom
3 October 1888
Her head was resting almost in the carriage wheel rut.


The Daily Telegraph
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1888
Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut.


Morning Advertiser (London)
3 October 1888
Her head was resting almost in the cart wheel rut,


Times (London)
Wednesday, 3 October 1888
Her head was resting almost in the line of the carriage way,


Woodford Times (Essex)
Friday, 5 October 1888
and her head in a gutter which runs down the right hand side of the court, close to the wall.


People
London, United Kingdom
Sunday, 7 October 1888
Her head was resting almost in the carriage wheel rut

[mariab]

Jon Guy wrote:
I won`t bother correcting Marie, but it is fun to put your bullshit to rights.
It's Marie Curie to you, if you'd please. (As I'm at least as smart a genious as her.) And it's interesting that everybody seems to think I'm Frrrrrrench.

John Guy wrote:
Really Tom, there`s only the Ripper himself that`s more repulsive than you in the world of Ripperology.
Tom can't help it. It's in his genes.
http://www.allthetests.com/quiz21/quizpu.php?testid=1159917590
http://www.allthetests.com/quiz04/da...tid=1045529007
And to be fair, I hit about 60% on the redneck test. Despite residing in Paris part of the year. I guess it's hard to beat genetic disposition.
John Guy wrote:
I only believe Stride`s neck was over a carriage rut because Dr Blackwell said so at the inquest.
That's completely innacurate. However, Tom Wescott's head was once over a carriage rut (as a follow-up to a doctor's advise).

[mariab]

Curious4 wrote:
Tom Wescott - please, where can I get a copy of your article? Couldn´t find it on the Casebook.
Curious, just klick on http://books.google.co.uk/books?. You'll get old Ripper Notes issues to read online, for free, in their entirety. I haven't checked if issue #25 is available to read there too, but it might. Ripper Notes issue #25 is the one containing pretty accurate information about the Stride murder. (Apart from the fact that Diemshitz' name was not spelled “Diemschutz“, and that we can't prove that Le Grand's fellow detective, J.H. Batchelor, was the publican at the Strand located in the 1899 London public houses listing.)

[Observer]

Curious4 wrote:
Tom Wescott - please, where can I get a copy of your article? Couldn´t find it on the Casebook.
Curious, just klick on http://books.google.co.uk/books?. You'll get old Ripper Notes issues to read online, for free, in their entirety. I haven't checked if issue #25 is available to read there too, but it might. Ripper Notes issue #25 is the one containing pretty accurate information about the Stride murder. (Apart from the fact that Diemshitz' name was not spelled “Diemschutz“, and that we can't prove that Le Grand's fellow detective, J.H. Batchelor, was the publican at the Strand located in the 1899 London public houses listing.)

I take it you have Ripper Notes #25. What was the stance regarding Stride hanging onto the cachous during the mauling recieved at the hands of Schwartz's assailant? Assuming the assault actually took place of course

O

[mariab]

Observer wrote:
Hi Maria
As John Guy intimates it pays to read the testimony carefully.
Hello Observer,
I can't believe that such a good photographer, experienced and locally acquainted with London as yourself quotes John Guy as a reliable source on Berner Street!!

Observer wrote:
The Stride inquest report available here in Casebook (Daily Telegraph) has Doctor Blackwell state
"a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper"
A packet wrapped in tissue paper, not loose cachous wrapped in tissue paper.
The foreman of the jury picked up on Blackwell's statement regarding the cachous he asking
" Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?
I KNOW what the inquest report posted here one casebook quotes. But I assure you that it's a quote from The Daily Telegraph, and that the part about the cachous having allegedly been in a packet is completely WRONG. Even the original quote per se exhibits that it's mixup: “A small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper“. Does it make any sense whatsoever to picture the packet wrapped in tissue paper? The cachous were not an early Christmas gift! “A small packet“ should be understood as “A small amount“. Tom Wescott is completely correct in his post #72. And generally he's to be trusted when quoting evidence on the Berner Street murder.

Observer wrote:
Elizabeth Stride had no teeth on her lower left jaw, I think it's fair to assume that her oral hygine wasn't the best. It's also fair to say that in all probability she had bad breath. I think she purchased the cachous. I also think there is a distinct possibility that she arranged a meeting with a man friend on the night of her murder, and the cachous were an aid to provide a good impression upon her new amour.
Absolutely correct, as previously discussed in a thousand and one Stride threads, but please consider that Stride might have used the cachous for business too, not necessary for a date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariab
The SOLE significance of the cachous to us (and by “us“ I mean Ripperology) is that the cachous testify to Stride having died very abruptly and quickly through asphyxiation (from her cut jugular), after possibly having been incapacitated by a stranglehold before she was brought to the ground
Observer wrote:
Which is at odds with the Schwartz observation, he describing a longer drawn out assault.
This is a very astute observation, Observer, and I'm glad you brought it up. As it is, the evidence points to 2 main possibilities:
1) The witness, Israel Schwartz, whom we suspect to have been a resident of the IWEC (research pertaining to this is currently been conducted by 4 different Ripperologists, and results are being posted/will be posted on casebook regularly) completely fabricated the story about Broad Shoulders and Pipeman. In that case BS and Pipeman never existed.
2) Israel Schwartz' story (at least one of the different versions he presented to the police) is partly true. In this case, you should know that Pipeman fits the pimp's/private detective's/WVC commander's Charles Le Grand's physical description to a t. I have a few ideas about how to research BS's physical description, and I intend to attempt researching BS at some point in the coming weeks (possibly during the Xmas holidays). If Schwartz' story is true, there are several scenarios that might have happened. I'm presenting them in a list, starting with the most plausible scenarios and moving down to less plausible ones:
-Scenario #1: BS killed Stride and Pipeman was involved. This scenario implies that Stride might have been familiar with BS, as strongly implied by the evidence, because
I) Stride did not scream loudly or made a big fuss when BS was pushing her around, confirming that she didn't consider herself in mortal danger when attacked by BS, and
II) At some point AFTER her initial attack by BS, Stride followed BS (perhaps accompanied by Pipeman) into Duttfield's Yard and took out her cachous.
-Scenario #2: Pipeman killed Stride and BS was an accomplice. In this scenario Stride might have been killed by Le Grand himself (alias Pipeman).
-Scenario #3: BS killed Stride and Pipeman was a mere witness. This scenario is problematic, because in this case Pipeman would have manifested himself as a witness, esp. with the police and the WVC discussing the possibility of a reward.
-Scenario #4: Stride got rid of BS, Pipeman was a mere witness, and the Ripper, who might have been watching the initial attack by BS, perhaps aroused by this, approached Stride LATER and killed her. A plausible possibility, but VERY tight in the time frame, thus quite a bit problematic.
-Scenario #5: Stride was a domestic crime, killed by Michael Kidney or by another boyfriend. Not plausible, because, as statistics prove, a domestic killing invariably starts with a physical beating, and Stride bore no signs of such. Stride was a blitz attack (as proved WITHOUT ANY QUESTION WHATSOEVER by the cachous tightly held in her left hand), and domestic murders are statistically NOT conducted as blitz attacks. Besides, noone has EVER mentioned or identified another boyfriend of Stride's besides Michael Kidney, whom she had left a couple days before her murder. And Michael Kidney didn't look at all like Pipeman or BS.
I hope this helps, and I'm hoping that more evidence might be discovered in the not too far future.

Observer wrote:
I take it you have Ripper Notes #25. What was the stance regarding Stride hanging onto the cachous during the mauling recieved at the hands of Schwartz's assailant? Assuming the assault actually took place of course.
Observer,
in Ripper Notes #25 Tom Wescott doesn't discuss the killing mode. I know he discusses it in another article, and I'll try to locate it and tell you. I'm sure Tom will give you his stance regarding the cachous on Monday, but please, think about it medicinally and understand that the cachous UNQUESTIONABLY imply a quick death by aspyxiation, possibly preceded by an incapacitated stranglehold. It was a blitz attack with no doubt whatsoever, as proved by the evidence.

[mariab]

Observer wrote:
Moreover, the cachous could still have spilled even if they were in a packet covered in tissue.
Are you trying to defy the laws of physics here, Observer?

I don't have time to take care of the “Stride's head in a wheel“ myth (which, I admit, presents a nice visual image! It reminds me of the coffee-table-constructed-from-a-carriage-wheel in the movie When Harry met Sally, with a head added inside the wheel/cofee table.). Let Tom take care of this on Monday or whenever.

[mariab]

Hello Grave Maurice. I apologize profoundly for having left you as last in answering your post, but I saved the best for the end.
The Grave Maurice wrote:
Not bad. Although saying that a Canadian probably lives close to a lake is like saying that an Englishman probably lives close to a pub: pretty much a given.
Precisely, exlaining my having guessed correctly.

The Grave Maurice wrote:
Retired is a good guess because of my age, but I'm an academic. In most jobs, when you're too old, and tired, and sick, and stupid to work, they put you out to pasture, whereas the exact opposite is true in academe (credit, with slight variations, Beyond the Fringe). And, because of the miracle of tenure, you don't have to worry about a new gig unless you want one.
If you can believe it, I've never seen any episodes of Beyond the fridge, as they don't play it in Europe out of the UK. And in Chicago I don't own a TV. I like Dudley Moore in Arthur (especially the scene after he's had dental surgery and answers the phone and Julie Andrews doesn't recognize his voice and keeps hanging up) and he's priceless in Unfaithfully yours, with Armand Assante and Nastasja Kinsky. It's a remake, and it's even better than the original with Rex Harrisson. I have it on tape and it's great fun watching it around Xmas when friends stay over, it's a very innocent and happy movie, yet really, really funny, even after many sightings.
Might I inquire what's your academic field? History? French literature?
I too, like every colleague in my age group, am chasing the silver lining of tenure. I've recently applied for a tenure track gig at Princeton, Uof Rochester/Eastman, and I'm about to send another application at Boston Uni. on Monday, but, despite my qualifications, the probability of getting any of these American jobs is small in the current economic crisis. In hard times people tend to want to take care of their own first. Still, things are kind of planned out already, as I have several gigs and projects going on in Europe (including a habilitation procedure in Germany), plus the Visiting Scholar/teaching/preparing critical editions for Rossini and Verdi at the UofC(hicago), which is a “forever“ deal. (But naturally I'm paid much less than a tenure track gig, this at least until I officially start preparing a critical edition as the editor – planned for 2015 – , and possibly in a few years, after a bit more “exposure“ in the States, tenure might become attainable. IF I'm still alive by then, and please, let's quit talking “career options“ because it makes me puke .)
Oh, and I was recently appointed on my first committee (the Gesellschaft für Musikforschung's committee for sociology and social history of music), and I'm just back from a conference organized by them where I was a key speaker (the key speaker gig being also a first), and where 8 of us worked together and planned different future conferences for 2 days straight.
(I'll attach my resume in my next post to you.)

The Grave Maurice:
I'm impressed with your cat guess, though. After twenty years of our children having a variety of pets, we are, at the moment, the servants of two cats. Well done.
You shouldn't be impressed by my so-called cat “guess“, because it wasn't a guess at all. I recall you mentioning your 2 cats at some point, no idea in which thread. I adore cats and I used to have a black one named Puck (and very fittingly so), but he's deceased now. And when in South Africa in July I had an “affair to remember“ (actually, a very deep, romantic, sexy love story) with a 1 year old cheetah (78kg and taller than me when he got on his hind feet and hugged me) named Choby. Whom I wish I had stolen and had gotten here with me, but he would have chewed all the cable in the apartment. (He would have been very unconspicuous on the plane too. He costed $800 to purchase, which I'm almost tempted to say he was
worth every cent.)

[Jon Guy]

It's Marie Curie to you, if you'd please. (As I'm at least as smart a genious as her.) And it's interesting that everybody seems to think I'm Frrrrrrench.

Would Marie Curie have misspelled Jon?

John Guy wrote:
I only believe Stride`s neck was over a carriage rut because Dr Blackwell said so at the inquest.
That's completely innacurate.

I didn`t expect you to read it, but just in case there`s still a ray of hope for you, in Post 76 I listed all the various press accounts I could find of Dr Blackwell`s testimony regarding the position of Stride`s neck/ head.

Which bit is innacurate ?

[Jon Guy]

Of course Liz Stride could have bought a paper packet of cachous, and put some into a piece of tissue prior to going out that evening.

Hi Observer,

Annie Chapman did a similar thing with her box of pills, transferring them into an envelope when the box started giving way.

But certainly, Dr Blackwell saw a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

[curious4]

Beyond the fridge

Beyond the fridge? Must have been looking at mine - definitely alien life- forms there!

Sorry, Marie - pot calling kettle black - if they have that expression in the USA!

"Americans always talk in catch-phrases, it leaves their minds free for the important things, like sex and making money" Somerset Maugham

[Hunter]

Alright, I'll jump into this... though I may regret it.

The carrage rut...

Stride's head was just inches away from the wall. There was a gutter that ran next to the wall to keep water away from the building and from running into the basement grating. The passage was narrow and it would be natural for carrage wheels to follow this line...same on the other side. In one report, Diemshitz says his wheel almost touched the body when his pony shied to the left.

Packet of cacheous...

It was probably a paper container that was open on one end - like an envelope, maybe?. The tissue was wrapped around it for protection. Cachous was a confection consisting mainly of sugar and starch, with a little aromatic oils. Very degradable... especially on a rainy night like was the case here. That's why it was usually sold in tins. Stride was probably given the cachous... maybe by another woman... thus the ad hoc container.

Dr. Blackwell spilled the cachous when trying to remove it from Stride's hand. Dr. Phillips, when mentioning the fact that this had happened did not know that until Blackwell admitted it upon recall.

None of this is really much to argue about as everyone is right to a certain degree.

[mariab]

As usual, Hunter establishes the facts correctly. Which shouldn't surprise, as he's not just a well-informed, experienced Ripperologist (as well as an historian specialized in the American civil war), but he's capable of consulting the primary sources and interpreting them correctly, spotting the (unavoidable, expected, and documented) errors which happen, have happened, and will happen all the time, even in primary sources. Erroneous reports in the contemporary press have contributed to many of the resisting myths in Ripperology. Thus we have the stubborn notion of Stride having been cut by a “dull knife“, Eddowes having impersonated a fire engine (for which I admit I wasn't aware it was a myth until a couple months ago), Mary Kelly having kept a child in her room, a “toff“ JTR having “seduced unfortunates with grapes“, which supposedly were “too expensive for Whitechapel inhabitants to afford“, etc. etc..

To Jon Guy (with no “h“):
I swear that misspelling “Jon“ was not intentional, as 'paybacks' for your misremembering my own name. (Or perhaps, subconsciously?)
Actually, Marie Curie might very well have misspelled "Jon", since she was Polish (birth name: Maria Sklodowska) and her French was at the level of a native speaker's, but her English most certainly was not, even if she was perfectly capable of carrying conference papers and interviews in English.

Jon Guy wrote:
I didn`t expect you to read it, but just in case there`s still a ray of hope for you, in Post 76 I listed all the various press accounts I could find of Dr Blackwell`s testimony regarding the position of Stride`s neck/ head.
Which bit is innacurate?
I did read your post #76, and ALL bits but The Woodford Times (from Essex) are innacurate. Incidentally every single one of the newspaper accounts referring to a carriage wheel that you quoted in your post #76 report of Stride's head having “rested almost in the carriage wheel rut“, NOT “over a carriage wheel rut“, as you insist on claiming. Have you never heard of journalistic exaggeration? Do you believe everything that you read in the papers today?
Among the newspaper accounts you quoted, ONLY The Woodford Times (Essex, from October 5, 1888) has it right:
And her head in a gutter which runs down the right hand side of the court, close to the wall.
My not having commented on your quotes of (some of) the newspapers reports was intentional. I was waiting/hoping from a Ripperologist more experienced and qualified than myself to butt in, discuss the situation, and explain in detail why these inaccuracies occurred. The people qualified enough to respond to this are: Tom Wescott, Rob Clack, Debra Arif, Monty (Neil Bell), and, naturally (), Stewart Evans. Plus, obviously, Hunter, as he demonstrates in his post #86.
Also (and in this I'm quoting you half in jest, with no hard feelings whatsoever) “just in case there`s still a ray of hope for you“ (to quote Jon Guy) in post #72 Tom Wescott expressed several observations pertaining to methodology in research (particularly pertaining to dealing with contemporary secondary sources, such as newspaper reports) from which you would benefit a great deal from reading.

[Fisherman]

Maria writes:

"As it is, the evidence points to 2 main possibilities:
1) The witness, Israel Schwartz, whom we suspect to have been a resident of the IWEC (research pertaining to this is currently been conducted by 4 different Ripperologists, and results are being posted/will be posted on casebook regularly) completely fabricated the story about Broad Shoulders and Pipeman. In that case BS and Pipeman never existed.
2) Israel Schwartz' story (at least one of the different versions he presented to the police) is partly true."

Hi Maria!
Can I ask you - do you entirely rule out the possibility that Schwartz was completely truthful? If so, why?
And what´s this about presenting various and differing versions of his story to the police? I only know of one version presented to the police.

"as statistics prove, a domestic killing invariably starts with a physical beating"

Can you provide those statistics, Maria? Where it is proven that no woman or man ever shot his spouse without first beating up on him or her, for example? My own hunch is that this may prove a difficult task, but I bet we´d all be very happy to see the proof you are referring to. It would put the Stride case beyond any possibility of ever having been domestically related, and that would be a huge leap forward for Ripperology.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Morning Fisherman,
how's the snow situation in Sweden? Here it's 10-15cm of packed powder, extremely atypical and early (but after last year's unusually long and severe winter, I was kind of expecting an early cold front). Did I tell you I'm going to Iceland in May?! Just got invited to a conference in Reykjavik, on Music and Nature, and then I hope to go ride the snowpark at the Sneffels crater, you know, where Jules Vernes located his Journey to the center of the earth, where they enter in the Sneffels crater and get spit out in Aetna. Who knows, we might even get to the center of the earth. Only problem, the Sneffels snowpark project was discontinued in the last 2 years due to global warming effects, but I hope that next year, thanks to the extreme winters, things might change. Have you ever been in Iceland?
OK, back to Ripperology, with many apologies for briefly highjacking this thread:
Fisherman wrote:
Can I ask you - do you entirely rule out the possibility that Schwartz was completely truthful? If so, why?
And what´s this about presenting various and differing versions of his story to the police? I only know of one version presented to the police.
Like I said in my post to which you're referring, Fish, I don't rule out at all the possibility that Schwartz's story might have been truthful. Pertaining to Schwartz's connection to the IWEC, 2 weeks ago at the Paris Archives Nationales I've located a bunch of French spy reports discussing anarchist activity in Victorian Whitechapel, mentioning, among else, Der Arbeter Fraint and Rudoplh Rocker. 2 spy reports mention someone named Schwartz. (No first name, as these sloppy spies very unfortunately NEVER mention first names in their reports, only person ever to have been mentioned with his first name is Rudoplh Rocker.) This Schwartz person, a Polish or Hungarian Jew, is reported as having talked at a Whitechapel Polish/Yiddish/Russian anarchist meeting in February 1905. The second report mentions Shwartz as an “experienced anarchist orator“, and implies that he had given talks in Yiddish and Polish or Hungarian. Rob Clack cleaned up my pictures and posted posted 3 or 4 of these reports in Lynn Cates' Kaufmann thread here on casebook (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4566), where I hope to manage to find a minute to post an English translation of the original French much later tonight. (Though I presume that you won't need a translation from French, Fish.)
Besides this, Chris Phillips and Debra Arif gave me lists of sweaters (available both online, at the British parlifiles and as pdf files) where one could look for a possible Israel Schwartz-William Wess connection. Due to my very marginal knowledge on anarchism in Victorian London, it's obvious that I'm not the ideal person to go through these lists (as I might be completely unable to identify minor socialists and anarchists spotted in the lists), but I was hoping that Tom Wescott or Lynn Cates might be interested in going through these lists. They are the ones who know their Victorian socialism/anarchism. (Power to them, and “Power to the people“.)
Now as for Schwartz having changed his statement, you know this better than me, Fish. I'm referring to the appearing/disappearing knife in Pipeman's hands.

Fisherman wrote:
Quote Maria "as statistics prove, a domestic killing invariably starts with a physical beating"
Can you provide those statistics, Maria? Where it is proven that no woman or man ever shot his spouse without first beating up on him or her, for example? It would put the Stride case beyond any possibility of ever having been domestically related, and that would be a huge leap forward for Ripperology.
As a fervent supporter of the possibility that Stride was a domestic killing, I was expecting a reaction from you, Fish. I COULD provide criminal statistics pertaining to domestic killings, but I have no time whatsoever for this, sorry. Unlike Dave (Protohistorian) and Colin (Septic Blue), I don't particularly enjoy playing with Excel and drawing statistic charts and pies. (I very much enjoy consulting statistics charts and pies drawn by others, and incidentally I spent all Saturday at a conference in West Germany, with some sociologists and lots of pies and charts and graphs.) But you can check up international criminal records online and see for yourself about the MO statistics in domestic crimes, Fish. Please keep in mind that we're not talking about shootings, which tend to happen more “independently“ of other physical harm, for lack of a better word, but about a slaying with a knife, which in domestics (and in other cases, such as pub fights, street fights, etc.) tends to be the culmination of an initial weapons-free argument.
For obvious reasons I don't wish to consider the Stride killing at a 100% certitude of NOT having been a domestic, thus I've included the domestic possibility in my list of scenarios, as the least probable of 5 scenarios.

Fisherman wrote:
My own hunch is that this may prove a difficult task, but I bet we´d all be very happy to see the proof you are referring to.
It's been a much more difficult task for you to provide evidence for a second boyfriend for Stride, for whom I honestly don't believe that he ever existed.

Fish,
before I forget this, if you're still planning coming to Berlin between Xmas and New Year's and interested in fish, might I suggest a visit to the Kdw (Kaufhaus des Westens), which is Berlin's Bloomies (if I'm not mistaken, a mall existing since the late 19th century)? Their 6th floor features an impressive fish section, which includes exotic brands. It's famed to be one of the richests fish markets in central Europe. I very often visit the fish section, as the Kdw's a mere 2 blocks from my apartment. The fish is prohibitedly expensive, but sometimes they offer discount prices 15' minutes before they close. Incidentally, there's an open roof bus touring the city with a stop just in front of the Kdw. Your wife and kids will probably enjoy both the Kdw and the bus tour (and the fish!).
Gotta go now, but I'll be back at some point early this evening.

[Fisherman]

Hi Maria!

Yes, I have been in Iceland. And I thoroughly reccomend it. Fabulous country!

"I don't rule out at all the possibility that Schwartz's story might have been truthful"

Ah - thanks for that! Somehow I got the feeling that it was the other way around.

"2 spy reports mention someone named Schwartz."

Interesting - but Schwartz is a very common name, of course!

"Now as for Schwartz having changed his statement, you know this better than me, Fish. I'm referring to the appearing/disappearing knife in Pipeman's hands."

I thought as much. But these ingredients do not appear exclusively in police reports. You have to add the Star to get there. As far as we can tell, Schwartz did not give differing versions of his story to the police, and we are left with the fact that the discrepancies in the Star version might owe to translation difficulties to at least some extent.

" I COULD provide criminal statistics pertaining to domestic killings, but I have no time whatsoever for this, sorry."

Of course you could. And so could I. The point here is another altogether, though, since you wrote that these statistics proved that all domestic killings invariably start with a physical beating. And statistics that prove such a thing would be extremely hard to come by - and false.

"It's been a much more difficult task for you to provide evidence for a second boyfriend for Stride, for whom I honestly don't believe that he ever existed."

Perhaps. But that was not the matter we were discussing, was it? Besides, having two independent witnesses at the inquest claim that Stride lived in Fashion Street is not too bad a beginning, is it? Taken together with the fact that Marshalls man and BS seemingly were each others twin brother, I´d say we do have evidence that points in my direction. What evidence do YOU have that 100% of the domestic killings start out with a physical beating? Thus you may need to rethink your assertion, Maria.

Thanks for the tip on the fish market, by the way - never heard of that one before!

The best,
Fisherman