Liz Stride and the grapes

[Jon Guy]

Thus, it's clear that Stride deliberately took the cachous out before being attacked,.

Hi Maria

I would suggest that the farinaceous powder found in her stomach was the cachous, and that she had been eating them at least an hour before she was killed, and would explain why they were in her hand.

Jon

[mariab]

John Guy wrote:
I would suggest that the farinaceous powder found in her stomach was the cachous, and that she had been eating them at least an hour before she was killed, and would explain why they were in her hand.
What you're saying doesn't make much sense. The farinaceous powder was embedded to the potatoes and cheese and was clearly consumed together, as a meal, a while before Stride was killed. A couple cachous would not have resolved into a farinaceous powder! Cachous recently ingested before Stride's death would be most visibly detected on her teeth (which were partly missing). Besides, Stride wasn't so rich as to have possesed a whole box of cachous, only about 6 or 8 of them were found on her, plus, are you seriously suggesting that she was chewing on cachous for an entire hour before she was killed, when the witnesses said completely otherwise?!? This is priceless...

[curious4]

Liz ate?

Sounds to me that what she ate was a cheese and potato pie! Don´t think anyone can say that she wasn´t rich enough to buy cachous - always supposing that JTR didn´t buy them for her, she not liking grapes, perhaps?

[mariab]

Hi Curious,
pertaining to Victorian Whitechapel cuisine, Rob Clack, Monty, and John Bennett are the true specialists. They're also the ones to consult for the price of a box of cachous.
Please, Curious, forget about the grapes! There were NO grapes. As for the cachous, if a john had bought them for Stride, she would have had them in a box or something. It appears like she had just half a dozen of them or so, wrapped in a piece of tissue. Like left over from better days.
Curious, I don't how much snow you currently have in Scandinavia, but we have a good 5'' inches of fresh powder here in Berlin. It's the most gorgeous sight! I'm supposed to take a train to a conference tomorrow. I wonder if it'll be possible...

[Jon Guy]

[B]What you're saying doesn't make much sense. The farinaceous powder was embedded to the potatoes and cheese and was clearly consumed together, as a meal, a while before Stride was killed. A couple cachous would not have resolved into a farinaceous powder! Cachous recently ingested before Stride's death would be most visibly detected on her teeth (which were partly missing). Besides, Stride wasn't so rich as to have possesed a whole box of cachous, only about 6 or 8 of them were found on her, plus, are you seriously suggesting that she was chewing on cachous for an entire hour before she was killed, when the witnesses said completely otherwise?!? This is priceless...

Hi Maria

Yes, I am seriously suggesting she was chewing on cachous at least an hour or so before she was killed.The bag of them in her hand and the contents of her stomach tell us so. Please note, I said an hour or so (which is when she probably had her meal) and not the entire hour before her death, as you wrote.

The farinaceous powder was embedded to the potatoes..really ? Where do you get that from ? Clearly consumed with the meal ?
This is what the Doctor said:

Dr Phillips: Partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles

How do you know Stride was not rich enough to own a whole packet of cachous? Remind me, what was she doing all Saturday afternoon?
Who said she bought them, anyway ?

Which witnesses said she wasn`t eating cachous, or gave evidence to the contrary?

As you say, it`s all rather simple when you stick to the facts, Maria

Jon

[mariab]

Hi Hunter,
I'm SO relieved that someone with a sound mind enters this thread!
I don't yet feel like my newbie status should be removed, or, how 'bout if we called it “an advanced beginner“? As a matter of fact, as a surfer I'm very much used to respecting hierarchies in the line up (otherwise you totally eat sh*t, not necessarily from the good surfers, but from the waves), and I can totally take the expected abuse as a newbie. It's the natural course of things!
The solution to the “grapes“ riddle is a contribution solely by Tom Wescott, and an important one, I'm convinced.
As for my researching Berner Street, I just chose to do this because it offers TONS of things to research, especially with my being frequently in Paris. I also wanted to research Miller's Court and I very much suspect Barnett (about which you'll probably roll your eyes), but there's not much evidence left to research there (apart from the eventuality of locating the Mary Kelly scene photo copies in Lyon, which I'm working on currently). So Berner Street it is...
By the by, do you already have snow in Tennesse? I doubt it. Here in Berlin we just got about 5'' inches of powder! I've just finished a paper for a conference to attend tomorrow, and I have no clue if the train will make it there. (Neither do I care too much...)
Anyways, thank you so much for the kind words, but let's not exaggerate.

[mariab]

To John Guy:
Cachous are not farinaceous edibles, but edible breath mints. There is NO farine/flour whatsoever in cachous. Moreover, cachous are not pralines. They don't taste so good that one might be nibbling on them for an hour. Their purpose is to freshen up the recipient's breath. Stride might very possibly have bought a box of cachous at some point in her past, but in the night of September 30, 1888, she only had about half a dozen of them, tied up in a piece of tissue. NO box was found. I can only repeat myself and the factual evidence about this.
John Guy wrote:
Please note, I said an hour or so (which is when she probably had her meal)
There is no evidence whatsoever that she had her meal only an hour before dying. This is complete conjecture.
John Guy wrote:
Which witnesses said she wasn`t eating cachous, or gave evidence to the contrary?
ALL witnesses who came forward corroborated that she wasn't eating cachous when sighted.

[Hunter]

Hi Maria,

After reading your post (no. 42) I think 'newbie' status can be removed. Your examination of the evidence from a logical and practical standpoint is indeed, refreshing. You've done your research well.

The mentioning of grapes by Mortimer and Diemshitz is a good lesson on how we should approach witness statements - especially as reported by the press. Coroner Baxter had his faults - i.e. the Chapman inquest - but he rightfully got a handle on the grapes issue during the Stride inquest so proper evidence could be evaluated.

[Observer]

To John Guy:
Cachous are not farinaceous edibles, but edible breath mints. There is NO farine/flour whatsoever in cachous. Moreover, cachous are not pralines. They don't taste so good that one might be nibbling on them for an hour. Their purpose is to freshen up the recipient's breath. Stride might very possibly have bought a box of cachous at some point in her past, but in the night of September 30, 1888, she only had about half a dozen of them, tied up in a piece of tissue. NO box was found. I can only repeat myself and the factual evidence about this.
John Guy wrote:
Please note, I said an hour or so (which is when she probably had her meal)
There is no evidence whatsoever that she had her meal only an hour before dying. This is complete conjecture.
John Guy wrote:
Which witnesses said she wasn`t eating cachous, or gave evidence to the contrary?
ALL witnesses who came forward corroborated that she wasn't eating cachous when sighted.

I don't want to discuss this at length for it was done to death some years back but cachous are not mints, they are perfumed sweets. And the cachous were in a small packet

Doctor Blackwell

"The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view"

I remember buying cachous as a child, they could be bought in small boxes, they could also be purchased loose, in small quantities, which were dispensed from a large jar into small packets. I'm of the opinion that Stride purchased them in in this way.

O

[Tom_Wescott]

Odds & Ends

Jon Guy is a silly man. Usually has his facts wrong and then yells at you for having them right. Still thinks Stride's head was lying over a carriage wheel rut, the poor man. Be nice, but approach him with caution.

As for Fanny Mortimer, I doubt she ever mentioned anything about grapes. Looks more like it was tagged on by the press agency from Diemshitz's statement. But if she did mention it, we can be sure it was hearsay as was a long of her evidence, bar what she saw from her door, which was nothing.

The cachous were wrapped in a tissue paper, with no box (yes, I'm aware of a press report that has Blackwell saying 'box', but there was not box). Abraham Heshburg estimated 6 or 7 cachous.

Looks like I need to go and read post #42!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Obsever wrote:
I don't want to discuss this at length for it was done to death some years back but cachous are not mints, they are perfumed sweets. And the cachous were in a small packet
EVERYTHING discussed in this thread has been done to death, Observer. This is what's a bit frustrating with Ripperology.
The “packet“ of the cachous consisted of wrapped tissue. It's a possibility that Stride got the cachous from some john on the evening of September 30, 1888 or earlier, but this is not important to us. The SOLE significance of the cachous to us (and by “us“ I mean Ripperology) is that the cachous testify to Stride having died very abruptly and quickly through asphyxiation (from her cut jugular), after possibly having been incapacitated by a stranglehold before she was brought to the ground.

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
Jon Guy is a silly man. Usually has his facts wrong and then yells at you for having them right. Still thinks Stride's head was lying over a carriage wheel rut, the poor man. Be nice, but approach him with caution.
I don't wanna sound harsh if I say, I'm very aware of all that, as I happen to have perused old threads (due to my totally sick curiosity).
Read post #42, Tom, and wheep... (And I really love Hunter!)
By the by, I've just finished checking the 13 pages long German conference paper I've so painfully managed to produced last night (painfully 'cause of resisting laziness), and it's really, really good! Now quickly to print it out. Having been away, I haven't used my printer for several weeks. Can you imagine if it's suddenly not working?!? The conference is tomorrow, and 2 train rides away...

[Tom_Wescott]

Just read post #42 and am glad I did.

1) Unlike Tom, I don't believe that Stride had fainted when she reached the ground.

Tom doesn't believe this either. He merely suggested it as a plausible explanation for the complete lack of evidence suggesting any other reason why Stride should have become unconscious.

2) Specifically in Stride's case I don't see at all Tom's scenario of bogus robbery having taken place, as in the assailant having asked Stride to empty her pockets and her getting out the cachous “by accident“, mixed up with her money. In that case, she might have rather come up with the buttons which were still found in her pocket post mortem, loose and intact.

You're of course assuming her buttons were in the same pocket as her money, whereas I am not. I doubt Stride would have put loose change or edibles in her dirty knick nack pocket. My robbery theory holds quite a bit of water actually and easily explains a number of factors: 1) The alleged silence of the victims, 2) The lack of struggle, 3) The thimble next to Eddowes' hand, 4) the items by Chapman's feet and head. It's also supported by the evidence I discussed in Berner Street Mystery Pt 2 which suggests Chapman's rings were taken from her hand while she was still alive.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Hi Tom,
for Chapman and Eddowes I too very much suspect a robbery ruse by the assailant, as the evidence very much points that way (Chapman's missing rings, Eddowes thimble –I hope that's how you spell it, I have no clue whatsoever about sewing). But for Stride, I really don't think so.

Tom Wescott wrote:
Tom doesn't believe this either. He merely suggested it as a plausible explanation for the complete lack of evidence suggesting any other reason why Stride should have become unconscious.
Tom is wise to have changed his mind. Tom is good, Tom is God on Berner Street...
Please excuse my wackiness tonight, but I'm IMMENSELY relieved. My printer just printed all I needed, I got my conference paper done, I only need to check the CD-ROM with my illustrations and pack a few things, then it's PARTY (meaning, doing whatever I wanna do for tonight, no pressures or impending deadlines).

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom,
for Chapman and Eddowes I too very much suspect a robbery ruse by the assailant, as the evidence very much points that way (Chapman's missing rings, Eddowes thimble –I hope that's how you spell it, I have no clue whatsoever about sewing). But for Stride, I really don't think so.

You must be drunk or French or something because this doesn't make sense.

Tom is wise to have changed his mind. Tom is good, Tom is God on Berner Street...

I haven't "changed my mind" as I never stated I BELIEVE SHE WAS DRUNK! THAT'S THE ONLY EXPLANATION! I offered it was a possible suggestion, and a very possible one it is. As for me being God, there is only one God, and he is not me. Besides, I'm far too modest for such a title. Let's say King of Berner Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott