was she a Ripper victim?

[Garza]

Hello Garza,

Considering the structures that were severed in her neck, screaming was likely an impossibility. Dave

Well of course dave, just like the other ripper victims - if you exclude the "oh murder" from Kelly.

[Garza]

Hello Garza.

"all the doctors/surgeons that studied the Ripper murders in 1888 agreed that Stride was a ripper victim"

Are you certain of that? You might glance at the Stride inquest. Note Wynne Baxter's summary based upon the 2 medical examiners who examined Liz.

Cheers.
LC

Are coroners meant to give their medical opinions, thought they acted like an impartial judge? He gave it in a sort of she could be/couldn't be kind of way Blackwell, Phillips and Bond all include Stride in the Whitechapel murders.

[YankeeSergeant]

cause of death

Are coroners meant to give their medical opinions, thought they acted like an impartial judge? He gave it in a sort of she could be/couldn't be kind of way Blackwell, Phillips and Bond all include Stride in the Whitechapel murders.

I've been away for awhile and I'm just now getting back into the thick of it so if I'm mstaken by all means correct me but weren't all of the five canonical victims strangled? This rather hinges for me because I'm working on the chapter in my novel dealing with Stride's murder. Regards, Neil (Yankee Sergeant)

[Garza]

I've been away for awhile and I'm just now getting back into the thick of it so if I'm mstaken by all means correct me but weren't all of the five canonical victims strangled? This rather hinges for me because I'm working on the chapter in my novel dealing with Stride's murder. Regards, Neil (Yankee Sergeant)

Tabrum, Nichols and Chapman all had signs of strangulation. Stride and Eddowes did not have any signs of strangulation, however that does not rule out that they were strangled. Only 25% of strangulation victims show visible signs of strangulation and sometimes even in the modern even radiology has to be used to identify strangulation as a cause of death.

I personally think Stride was strangled by her silk scarf around her neck. I think this for a few reasons:

a) the cachous in her hand - strangulation can cause tightening of the muscles, including the hands - hands therefore become clenched

b) tightening of the handkerchief. The handkerchief was tied in a bow and was tight, however Blackwell did say the knot was not tight enough to suggest it was used to strangle the victim, however he overlooked the nature of the bow knot - the bow knot does not tighten that much even when being pulled by a strong man. I have tested this many times and I have been surprised how little it tightens. Blackwell may know about medicine, but he might know little about knots.

c) ligature strangulation can show no marks on the skin whatsoever, depending on the material used, soft material like a silk handkerchief may leave not mark whatsoever.

d) with the position of the body relative to the wall, I think she was strangled facing the wall, she maybe be even pinned up against the wall (would explain lack of struggle), when she was unconcious the killer, laid her on her side using her handkerchief and cut her throat.

[lynn cates]

connect the dots

Hello Neil. Garza is right that both Polly and Annie were strangled. No doubts about this given the protruding, lacerated tongues.

Garza is also correct that, although C3-C5 showed no such signs, yet they could have been strangled. But isn't it odd--C1 & C2, definite signs; C3-C5, no such signs. Read that in conjunction with the Isenschmid thread and, well, connect the dots.

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

Garza is also correct that, although C3-C5 showed no such signs, yet they could have been strangled. But isn't it odd--C1 & C2, definite signs; C3-C5, no such signs. Read that in conjunction with the Isenschmid thread and, well, connect the dots.

That doesn't mean I thing I'm afraid LC. Its like me saying Nichols was not killed by the same man who murdered Chapman because no organs were removed.

It is very possible that JtR changed from manual to ligature. Serial killers do "evolve" their practices, they don't need to kill the exact same way everytime and if they find better ways to kill, they will do them.

[lynn cates]

serial

Hello Garza. Given that Annie's assailant indeed removed her organ. Let's pay due respect to Trevor's hypothesis here.

"Serial killers do "evolve" their practices, they don't need to kill the exact same way everytime and if they find better ways to kill, they will do them."

Indeed. Now, if only we could establish the work of a serial killer here--without, of course, reverting to a petitio principii.

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Hello All,

Did any of you read the WSJ essay about the possibility C3-5 were killed by cardiac arrest, by a perfected form of strangulation?

[Garza]

Hello All,

Did any of you read the WSJ essay about the possibility C3-5 were killed by cardiac arrest, by a perfected form of strangulation?

No, I am not subbed to WSJ, just Casebook, sounds very interesting though !

How would one "perfect" strangulation?

EDIT: Actually might of read it in the dissertations section on Casebook.

[corey123]

Hello Garza,

If your a member of JTRForums, check under Cris Malone's threads, in which he sumerizes the essay. Rather interesting idea it is.

[Raoul's Obsession]

Strangulation

I'd also add the mysterious case of Rose Mylett to this idea of strangulation.

While I'm certainly not suggesting she was a ripper victim, she illustrates perfectly the difficulty that Victorian police had with the detection of strangulation. I'm working purely from memory, but the first doctor who investigated the body thought he detected signs of strangulation (marks on her throat) but then subsequent inspections (by Bond I think) detected nothing. However, clearly the lady died - so what did she die of. Police officers held the opinion that she may have fell (knocked herself unconscious ) and then choked on her collar, yet the jury still returned a verdict of murder by person or persons unknown.

We certainly can't rule out strangulation just because they didn't detect any signs or marks.

[YankeeSergeant]

You're choking me up.

All quite informative! I'm spitballing here but is it possible that all five victims were killed by the same person as originally assumed. Can we assume that Stride was not mutilated because something interrupted the killer. The reason I postulated this is not to dispute anyone but forensics was in it's infancy then if indeed ithad gestated at all. How much would the Met or Scotland yard have known about ligiture marks and determining if the same person committed the crime based on that? AS to who the Ripper was or even if it was more that one person i'm still open to those questions (And a hell of a lot more). For the purposes of the novel I'm writing I have one protagonist for six victims (I have a fictional victim in the story). I also include Tabram's murder but have her killed by someone other than my JTR. I have my Jack as a doctor but in reality I'm no more certain on that than I am the strangulation issue. Neil