was she a Ripper victim?

[sunflower]

I have been trying to make sense of some the evidence for and against Elizabeth Stride being a Ripper victim. I've tried to make a For and Against list. Can anyone tell me if I am missing anything as it helps to get things straight in my head.

For:

same victim class (age/also possibly same occupation);
usual time of attack;
same M.O. in mode of death (throat cut);
same vicinity;
seen with unknown male shortly before death.

Against:

no mutilations;
attacker of Eddowes possibly travelling back towards scene of Stride crime, which wouldn't make sense if it was the Ripper since he surely would be aware the area would be populated by investigating Police officers;
possibility of Stride being involved in domestic violence case (and possibly due to date someone that night) -(if anyone has any more information about that and her relationship with Kidney I'd be really interested in that);
seen in argument shortly before death...surely the Ripper would not draw attention to himself in such a way if he was about to murder her? Would such a man have been able to be so calm such a short time after as to be observed by Lawende almost in a lover's embrace with Eddowes?

I'd appreciate any comments/suggestions.

[corey123]

Hello Sunflower,

If you want you can take a look at my thread "Did JTR kill Liz Stride."

Its a bit long but worth the read.

[sdreid]

More for:

Most authorities at the time thought she was and they should know

Differences explainable due to interruption

[Hunter]

I don't know about Stride being classified as a 'Ripper' victim... but a strong case can be made that she could be linked with Eddowes due to the facts that their throat wounds were very similar and it is still a mystery as to how they were placed on the ground without obvious signs of strangulation... let alone the other similarities mentioned. Outside of the lack of mutilation in one, the method of dispatch seems very similar.

The previous two 'canonicals' showed signs of strangulation and experienced much deeper and repetitive throat wounds. Of course they were on different nights with their own unique circumtances.

In other words, instead of trying to link Stride with Nichols, Chapman or Kelly. Her murder in relation to Eddowes should be considered before any broader correlation is attempted; realizing that these are all individual unsolved murders linked by some common characteristics.

[lynn cates]

double event

Hello Hunter. Yours is the best post I've seen in many a day. I think I may love you. (heh-heh)

Double event MAY just refer to 2 killed as part of same stratagem--not same hand.

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

I don't know about Stride being classified as a 'Ripper' victim... but a strong case can be made that she could be linked with Eddowes due to the facts that their throat wounds were very similar and it is still a mystery as to how they were placed on the ground without obvious signs of strangulation... let alone the other similarities mentioned. Outside of the lack of mutilation in one, the method of dispatch seems very similar.

Yes I agree Stride and Eddowes murders were similar. The cut at the neck started at the same exact point as each other.

The previous two 'canonicals' showed signs of strangulation and experienced much deeper and repetitive throat wounds. Of course they were on different nights with their own unique circumtances.

I have wondered about that myself. Why did Stride and Eddowes show no sign of strangulation? Clearly Nichols and Chapman were strangled by the killer's hands - bruises. I'm no forensic scientist but is there markings in every strangulation event? I read somewhere that marks do no always appear, not too sure tho. Also Nichols and Chapman were far more "rotund" than Stride and Eddowes, does fatty flesh bruise more easily?

[Garza]

sunflower, first off, welcome. Second, tackling the case of Stride's murder is a complicated process lol, no-one should tackle it without first reading Gavin Bromley's Smith's beat

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-smiths-beat.html

[Garry Wroe]

I have wondered about that myself. Why did Stride and Eddowes show no sign of strangulation? Clearly Nichols and Chapman were strangled by the killer's hands - bruises. I'm no forensic scientist but is there markings in every strangulation event?

Medical examination revealed that Kate Eddowes' tongue was swollen and protruding, Garza. In other words, asphyxia was clearly a component of the Mitre Square murder.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Hunter]

Hi Gary,

I would be interested in the medical report you refer to. At the inquest, Dr. Sanders was called to give evidence on whether any narcotics were in Kate's stomach; implying that she may have been drugged. Obviously, at that time they were still contemplating on how she was subdued.

My opinion is that both Stride and Eddowes were asphyxiated by some undertermined method because of the lack of arterial spray in both cases; the usual signs not being as obvious as with Nichols and Chapman.

[Garza]

Medical examination revealed that Kate Eddowes' tongue was swollen and protruding, Garza. In other words, asphyxia was clearly a component of the Mitre Square murder.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

Interesting! I could be mistaken, but if I remember, no bruises or lesions were found on the neck of Eddowes. Which means brusing is not a definte by product of strangulation.

[Garza]

More for:

on back and head facing left when throat was cut
no struggle or screams heard despite many witnesses in the near vicinity
neck cut in the same way as Eddowes only less deep
all the doctors/surgeons that studied the Ripper murders in 1888 agreed that Stride was a ripper victim

[lynn cates]

Baxter

Hello Garza.

"all the doctors/surgeons that studied the Ripper murders in 1888 agreed that Stride was a ripper victim"

Are you certain of that? You might glance at the Stride inquest. Note Wynne Baxter's summary based upon the 2 medical examiners who examined Liz.

Cheers.
LC

[protohistorian]

Hello Garza,

Considering the structures that were severed in her neck, screaming was likely an impossibility. Dave

[Garry Wroe]

I would be interested in the medical report you refer to.

Sorry, Hunter, but since I no longer have my research notes, I don’t recall the precise source(s) relating to Eddowes’ swollen and protruding tongue. You may rest assured, however, that the information is most definitely out there.

At the inquest, Dr. Sanders was called to give evidence on whether any narcotics were in Kate's stomach; implying that she may have been drugged. Obviously, at that time they were still contemplating on how she was subdued.

I tend to think that such a process is attributable to the standard elimination procedure, Hunter, rather than a suspicion relating specifically to Eddowes’ mode of death.

My opinion is that both Stride and Eddowes were asphyxiated by some undertermined method because of the lack of arterial spray in both cases; the usual signs not being as obvious as with Nichols and Chapman.

To the best of my recollection, Hunter, arterial blood spray was found only at the Chapman and Kelly crime scenes – the two venues at which a victim was killed close to a wooden partition.

With regard to the so-called double event, it may be of significance that the night under scrutiny was punctuated by heavy showers. This being the case, it is entirely possible that any blood spray pattern was simply dissolved by the moisture that must have been present on all of the surrounding hard surfaces. Alternatively, the blood flow that pooled around the area of the neck may have covered any initial fine spray.

Whilst the above is no more than conjecture, I would nevertheless contend that the failure to identify a blood spray pattern should in no way be taken as proof of absence.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[Hunter]

I tend to think that such a process is attributable to the standard elimination procedure, Hunter, rather than a suspicion relating specifically to Eddowes’ mode of death.

I would have to disagree because there is no evidence that this was done in the previous murders so there had to be a reason for this type of analysis in this case. Despite persistant questions by Crawford, none of the medicos were able to offer an explaination as to how the woman got to the ground without an apparent struggle. Even a juror asked about the possibility of poisoning as a method.

To the best of my recollection, Hunter, arterial blood spray was found only at the Chapman and Kelly crime scenes – the two venues at which a victim was killed close to a wooden partition.

With regard to the so-called double event, it may be of significance that the night under scrutiny was punctuated by heavy showers. This being the case, it is entirely possible that any blood spray pattern was simply dissolved by the moisture that must have been present on all of the surrounding hard surfaces. Alternatively, the blood flow that pooled around the area of the neck may have covered any initial fine spray.

Whilst the above is no more than conjecture, I would nevertheless contend that the failure to identify a blood spray pattern should in no way be taken as proof of absence.

That is plausable. We don't know the condition of the pavement. The rain had subsided around 11:30, I believe. In this case, I would give Dr. Brown the benefit of doubt as he was there and likely would have considered that aspect. His testimony ," No spurting of blood on bricks or pavement... There was no blood on the front of the clothes" is the evidence we have. To quote Sugden, "This pattern of staining, for reasons already noticed, is consistant with the view that her throat was cut after death".