A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

One of Stride's nicknames was Hippy Lip Annie. 'Hippy' means to stick out, which is what her bottom lip did, so it became a nickname like 'Long Liz'.

I've been trying to hunt down the source for that ever since I quoted you ! Where did you learn that ?

However, what BS Man called out was 'Lipski' and not Lizzie, Lippie, Lezzie, or anything else that has been suggested over the years.

Witnesses make errors all the time. Stress and inability to speak English would work wonders.

FWIW I agree with your opinion, but would never state it as fact.

I am surprised that the people who believe Stride to be a domestic have never jumped on the idea.

[mariab]

Sir Robert Anderson wrote:
Anyone who cares to point me towards them would be most welcome. They've eluded me, including a search of the CD-ROM of the old boards.
If you go into the sub-category Victims and Liz Stride in the listings of casebook threads, there is at least one thread named Lipski or Lizzie?. You can also access the threads by visiting the Liz Stride victim site, the threads are listed at the bottom of the page, along with press reports and dissertations pertaining to Berner Street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott
One of Stride's nicknames was Hippy Lip Annie. 'Hippy' means to stick out, which is what her bottom lip did, so it became a nickname like 'Long Liz'.
Sir Robert Anderson wrote:
I've been trying to hunt down the source for that ever since I quoted you! Where did you learn that?
I hope that Tom Wescott knows the answer to this, I simply need to say that Stride having a so-called hare-lip is mentioned in almost every single piece of lit on her, including Paley. In fact, one can see that her lower lip is a bit hanging even in her postmortem picture.
Might I inquire if you are writing something on Stride?

Sir Robert Anderson wrote:
I am surprised that the people who believe Stride to be a domestic have never jumped on the idea.
(Despite what my friend Fisherman believes) Stride was almost certainly not a domestic, as the violence used upon her was too quick, sudden, and clean-cut.
The most probably possibility is that BS shouted “Lipski“, which in Victorian Whitechapel was used, both in unfriendly exchange between Jews and in exchange between Jews and gentiles, similarly to todays' “motherf*cker“. I think it was Gareth Williams (Sam Flynn) who quoted evidence about the use of “Lipski“ (also between Jews) in Victorian Whitechapel in several Stride threads. One of them might have been the thread Schwartz, a liar?, but I can't promise. (Recently I've started keeping notes of relevant details like this, but only very recently, I'm afraid!)

[Hunter]

From the Evening Star: Nov. 12, 1888


'No. 6.--Another Whitechapel woman, Elizabeth Stride, nicknamed "Hippy Lip Annie," forty years old, was murdered in Berners street, on Sunday, September 30, at about 1 a.m. Her throat was cut, but there was no slashing of the remains. The body was warm when found and the murderer had been apparently frightened away. '

There are many other papers at that time that mention this nickname.

[mariab]

Thank you so much, Hunter! Really didn't have time to go through the papers tonight...

[Adam Went]

Maria:

Victorian era clocks of the East End were most definitely not synchronized, we've come across instances of that before. We can only presume that Mortimer was telling the time from a clock that was in her home, and who knows how accurate that would have been - whatever the case, she had no reason at all to be paying attention to exactly what minute of the day it was, which makes it all the more absurd and ridiculous to believe that she could have positively stated that she was at her door from 12.46 to 12.56.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

I know, Adam, I was being ironic with the “synchronized“. As I said, I believe that Ms Mortimer exaggerated the time she spent at her door. However, as many have said, her testimony is backed up by Goldstein. Actually, it's not the possibility that she only might have spent 10'minutes at her door that bothers me, it's the “12.46 to 12.56“ quote, about which I'm not even sure where it originated from. (But I'll most definitely order Rip 113-115 soon.)
And I don't necessarily buy it that PC Smith had his times completely correctly or even truthfully. He may have been slacking and covered it up.
On another matter, not unrelated, I might have a theory that would explain how Schwartz might have concocted his testimony from scratch and still have used Pipeman's physical description intentionally. But it requires tons of research, as in researching Schwartz's possible involvement with the IWEC, the WVC's interest in collaborating with the IWEC (which is documented in The Evening News), Joseph Aarons' involvement with Le Grand, and even the Okhrana's practice of hiring local detective agencies to pursue their international agenda against socialists/anarchists. Does anybody already have a clue to where my theory leads? ;-) Shall I say more?
OK, I suspect the possibility that Le Grand might have been playing both sides of the street. And that William Wess reacted to that. (And it's all sheer conjecture, until it gets researched, but it will get researched eventually.)

[tji]

(Despite what my friend Fisherman believes) Stride was almost certainly not a domestic, as the violence used upon her was too quick, sudden, and clean-cut.

????!!

Maria are you saying all domestic attacks have to be slow and unco-ordinated, I don't really think that is the case!

Also while you are obviously entitled to your opinion, you can't possibly say that she was almost certainly not a domestic. Quite a bit of info - that has been discussed - points to the fact that she may have been, that is why there is so much conjecture with Liz.


Tj

[mariab]

Hello Tracy,
I had no idea that you were of the opinion that Stride was a domestic. I find it almost completely improbable. Obviously I didn't mean that domestics solely happen in a slow and uncoordinated fashion (although many of them indeed do!), but mainly that they tend to start with more “intimate“ injury to the face, such as shiners, black eyes, etc.. Stride's slaying is too reminiscent of the other C5s to be a crime committed by anyone else by the Ripper. This is not “just my opinion“, it's based both on evidence and on probability.

tji wrote:
Quite a bit of info - that has been discussed - points to the fact that she may have been
Such as? And are you suggesting Michael Kidney, or another partner, like Fisherman does? Fisherman believes that BS was Stride's other, “secret“ partner. I hope you won't say that BS was Michael Kidney, because the physical description doesn't match at all.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Much appreciated.

From the Evening Star: Nov. 12, 1888


'No. 6.--Another Whitechapel woman, Elizabeth Stride, nicknamed "Hippy Lip Annie," forty years old, was murdered in Berners street, on Sunday, September 30, at about 1 a.m. Her throat was cut, but there was no slashing of the remains. The body was warm when found and the murderer had been apparently frightened away. '

There are many other papers at that time that mention this nickname.

[mariab]

Pertaining to the “12.46 to 12.56“ time frame (see posts #845-846), it's most probable that the dot 6 might have originated from Dr. Blackwell's testimony at the inquest that Stride should have been dead between twenty to thirty minutes before he arrived at 1:16, placing Stride's time of death (according to Dr. Blackwell) between 12:46 and 12:56.

[tji]

Hi Maria


mainly that they tend to start with more “intimate“ injury to the face, such as shiners, black eyes, etc..

We know that Kidney had indeed started with more 'intimate' injuries, we know Elizabeth brought charges of assault against him in April 1887. So he had at least one prior of assault and there are claims that they had frequent rows and arguments to the point of Liz leaving him.

Stride's slaying is too reminiscent of the other C5s to be a crime committed by anyone else by the Ripper. This is not “just my opinion“, it's based both on evidence and on probability.

Maria, I don't think you can use probability as a point of evidence!
While there was indeed similarities to the other victims, there are also differences that stand out enough to be questioned.

These have been discussed frequently and I am bringing nothing new to the table, however I don't feel comfortable that you can say that it was not a domestic and it's not just your opinion, it's evidence. This cannot be the case or we wouldn't be having this discussion! If the evidence was so clear then you wouldn't have so many people questioning it.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

Also while you are obviously entitled to your opinion, you can't possibly say that she was almost certainly not a domestic. Quite a bit of info - that has been discussed - points to the fact that she may have been, that is why there is so much conjecture with Liz.

Lord knows I don't want to get in the middle of a Maria/Teej battle, but absolutely zero evidence points to Stride having been a domestic homicide.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

No battle.
Tracy, yes, Stride brought charges of assault against Kidney on April 6th, 1887 and failed to turn up at the hearing (as so many abused women do). And yes, Stride and Kidney had frequent rows and arguments and regularly split and came back together, as many couples do, alcoholic or not. Still, this is NOT the OJ Simpson case! None of Stride's acquaintancies at the inquest offered any suggestions that Stride was afraid of Kidney, let alone afraid for her life. Instead of that, we have (questionable) circumstancial evidence by Dr. Barnardo that Stride and her fellow roommates at Flower and Dean were afraid of the Ripper.
If we look at the Stride/Kidney relationship in the social historical context of Victorian Whitechapel, it's questionable if it can be considered as anything worse than strained due to alcoholism. Please remember what Eddowes said on September 30, 1888 about receiving "a fine hinding“ at the hands of her John Kelly when getting home from jail, and I'm sure it's not news to a researcher like you that women who came forward about spousal abuse at the courts frequently ended up beaten and in some cases stabbed and strangled (not to death ;-)) by the defendant in front of the very magistrates. The newspapers and casebook's section Victorian Whitechapel are full of such stories.
Michael Kidney was a weak, prematurely aged, thin shouldered man (see his sketches at the inquest and in the papers) with deteriorating health, suffering from lubago and later (after Stride's death) syphilis. The evidence at the Stride murder site points NOT to a domestic, but to a slaying by someone non hesitant, non personal, and experienced in quickly incapacitating his victims followed by effective cut-throating.

[tji]

Hi Tom

Long time no speak - I hope you are well

In the same vein, It can't be said with a 100% accuracy that Stride was a Ripper victim.

Teej

[tji]

Hi Maria

Stride brought charges of assault against Kidney on April 6th, 1887 and failed to turn up at the hearing (as so many abused women do). And yes, Stride and Kidney had frequent rows and arguments and regularly split and came back together, as many couples do, alcoholic or not. Still, this is NOT the OJ Simpson case! None of Stride's acquaintancies at the inquest offered any suggestions that Stride was afraid of Kidney, let alone afraid for her life. Instead of that, we have (questionable) circumstancial evidence by Dr. Barnardo that Stride and her fellow roommates at Flower and Dean were afraid of the Ripper.

Huh?? What has the OJ case got to do with this, I don't see your leap?

Just because she was scared of the Ripper doesn't mean that he killed her. I don't espouse the theory that Stride was living in fear of Kidney, in fact I think it would be more likely that she would be stood arguing with him than she would Jtr.


The evidence at the Stride murder site points NOT to a domestic, but to a slaying by someone non hesitant, non personal, and experienced in quickly incapacitating his victims followed by effective cut-throating.

That is the point, it wasn't the blitz attack that Jtr used, she was attacked very near a loud, busy club, which was better lit than all his other haunts, he was seen arguing, he allowed her to call out, he allowed himself to be seen. It was also the only murder South of Whitechapel Road, and it was a different knife used.

However this argument has been around since I started the boards and it is no closer to any solution. I just don't think you can state that all evidence points to it being a C5 killing when that isn't the case. Besides the time of night, the slashed throat (with a different knife) and the fact it happened in between killings of Jtr, similarities are quite sparse.

My apologies to C.D for going off thread.

Tj