A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[lynn cates]

reference number

Hello Roy. Thanks.

The anti-socialist "hit man" was likely an anarchist himself. (This possibility confused me for some time.)

Yes, it's in the "Ultimate Companion." In my edition it is pp. 313 & 4. The number I see is "A49301D/1."

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

what chapter? I don't see it that page.

[lynn cates]

ch 16

Hello Roy. Mine says ch 16.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Got it, thanks.

The entire Chapter 16 is a series of memos back and forth about the Viennese "informant." Is this what your are referring to?

Roy

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Roy. Yes, that's it. The informant seems to have taken them for a ride, even though he evinces a good knowledge of socialism/anarchism and its current internecine strife.

But my main point is Sir Charles' ruminations. Obvious? Well, it hadn't been to me. And when I first read it, my jaw dropped onto the table.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Roy Cordyroy wrote:
Lynn, I understand your theory. That to discredit the club, an agent provocateur killed Liz Stride. An anti-socialist hit man.
(as opposed to an antisocial personality disorder)
I LOVED that joke, Roy Cordyroy.
Now back to peeling a bunch of potatoes and sweet potatoes, if we ever wish to have a Xmas dinner at some point before 23.00 p.m. tonight!
Merry Xmas to everyone!
(I'll also check the memos you're mentioning, Lynn.)
Man, are we LATE with the cooking...

[Phil Carter]

Quick question Phil, why would the police make people think it was one killer if they had evidence it wasn't? The police thought they had a single killer on the lose, however if from example Liz Stride was found out to be different they most to gain in saying Jack the Ripper did not kill two people that night.

It would:
~ make the public more calm
~ make them sound less imcompetant and get the press of their back.

I do not think the police investigation was guided by press reports. For whatever reason, they believed that one killer was on the loose.

Hello Garza,

If, and I only put this forward as an idea... IF they could not be sure as to JI being the murderer at the time of 30th September, then by 1st October, with two more murders in one night, it would be very reasonable to assume (given the state of Eddowes body especially) that the original murderer was still on the loose and that any theory regarding JI, incarcerated, should be forgotten.
We do not know how far they were down the line investigating JI. We know only certain parts. But by 1st October, he is certainly out of the game. So they didn't have the evidence you speak of in their minds. So yes, believing there was one killer on the loose would be logical..but it was only re-enhanced and confirmed by the letter, the postcard, the kidney, and the press reaction, given and printed in every newspaper with police permission..

Almost like promoting it... bill posters and front page print out newspaper facsimilies. Best box-office attraction that is....

Must have been really reassuring and calming for the poplace.... NOT.

As regards the public being more calm... I would say that is interpretation. How would one regard the knowledge of TWO homocidal maniacs amongst one's vicinity, knowing that panic was taking over left right and centre? Would it be a calmer reaction? I doubt it, personally. Two killers in that area? Both murdering defenceless women? .. Oh no... that couldn't be the case... the resignations would follow like a pack of cards falling...

The background in Whitechapel is of the utmost importance here. Terrible murder and mutilations, throats cut, seemingly defenceless women of abject poverty, seemingly abject police protection of the poor, the anti-socialists making waves and being shadowed closely by Special Branch,, the seemingly tender Fenian problem within the area, being chased down by Special Branch, the pro-Fenian Americans in the area being kept an eye on by Special Branch, the European Anarchists infiltrating and even setting up clubs all over the place from Russia, France, Austria, etc, again being hunted down by Special Branch. (Warren makes reference to Johann Stammer, alias Kelly (of all names) as written of before, and according to the excellent book The World That Never Was, ports were being regularly monitored for any movement from the continent towards London). There was also discontent from the police themselves that had been simmering for ages regarding pay and conditions. Warren's army-like control of the upper departments causing friction. The Home Secretary Matthews was clearly not in love with Warren either, leaving Anderson pulling strings in the secret background to get on with his little speciality, knowing full well the Parnell stuff put him straight into the spotlight... Monro waiting quietly nestled under Matthews' protective wing until Warren resigned... Williamson, a very sick man unable to do his duty, and then you have all the other police divisions being poured in from all over the place (including Ireland) to deal with the JTR problem. That caused the local poplace uneasiness because of the amount of total strangers hanging around too.
And the reason to search every home in the area? We are looking for a killer of women. Every home? Not a street, not a suspected mini area... EVERY HOME. That means they had free chance to get on with all the other stuff under the banner of "hunting for a murderer"... Anderson at his Spymaster best...using the situation to meet his own ends with the Parnell situatrion breathing down his neck.

There was very little safety in Whitechapel. But I'll be blowed if posting giant prints of the letters of handwriting outside each End End police station from this supposed "maniac" was going to calm or help the situation. Protect and serve? Some protection!

From the people's point of view, the police were failing badly in their duty. From top to bottom. They had no control over much of the above situation in Whitechapel from 1887 onwards (after Trafalgar Square), and this awful glut of murder, which for the poor and starving women weren't even safe, left the entire poplace in total array. And the press knew this. Some were at Warren's heals from way back. The clamour for his head was being promted from both the Press and from the Home Secretary...

The whole situation was totally out of control...so badly that all press were questioning loads of things by November 9th 1888. Then Warren's resignation becomes public, Kelly is murdered in an even worse fashion, Monro takes over, and lo and behold, by the end of the year (we are told a few years later), JTR is dead, drowned. Then he is a Polish Jew, incarcerated, then he is a Russian doctor, then he is, then he is... and Dear old PC Plod and his gang have no idea that JTR was any of these things. And all the top brass don't agree with each other over who was the murderer? Indictaes to me that some thought one thing, some thought the other for a reason. The lack of co-ordination and agreement is plainly apparent. All, without a shadow of evidence or proof. How convenient. "We knew who he was but he is dead/incarcerated/moved far far away. We had it all under control all the way ladies and gentlemen. After all, we are the best force in the world"..... utter hogwash.


Sorry about the long posting. That's it. Christmas time. JTR is going to be put away from my mind for a while and the season of festivity starts. Have a good one, one and all.

best wishes

Phil

[Adam Went]

Just to clarify from reading some posts a few pages back, Israel Schwartz himself could not be sure of whether Pipeman and BS man were known to each other or not, so it's pretty unlikely that anybody else would have done - unless one or the other of them came forward, and let's be honest, that's pretty unlikely as well.

It's been my hypothesis for some time that Pipeman was in fact the killer, and therefore Jack the Ripper, whereas BS man was simply a drunken bloke out on a weekend night who decided to take poor Liz on for no particular reason - domestic violence, as we know, was very common. It was due to this that Pipeman - Jack - sensed an opportunity.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Adam Went wrote:
Just to clarify from reading some posts a few pages back, Israel Schwartz himself could not be sure of whether Pipeman and BS man were known to each other or not, so it's pretty unlikely that anybody else would have done - unless one or the other of them came forward, and let's be honest, that's pretty unlikely as well.
This is absolutely clear. What someone asked a few pages back was if Pipeman might have been able to tell whether Schwartz knew BS or not.
I too have toyed with the possibility that Pipeman might have been the Ripper and got excited by seeing BS (unrelated to Pipeman) roughing up Stride.
In my opinion, an even more plausible scenario would be that BS was trying to bring Stride over to Pipeman (where Pipeman might have been Le Grand).
Merry Xmas to everyone, and I'm going back to my party, where my stereo is seriously malfunctioning. The turntable we've managed to keep serviceable, but the CD-player is totalled...

[sleekviper]

Well it has to be the worlds longest gate. Schwartz is at the gate, Liz is at the gate. A man walks up, talks, grabs Liz. Liz gets thrown to the ground, and softly yells three times. Schwartz goes across the street. Now in the split second that it should take to pass the gate, Schwartz is at the gate, then shifts into baby steps I guess, he crosses the street not yet to the mess that has not started until he was at that gate.He should have been a block away easy. Then, a man that can not speak English, knows for a fact that she repeated something three times? How does he know it is not one sentence, he can't speak English. I would expect to hear she spoke softly, yelled softly, whatever, but to know she repeated something 3 times? I dunno, sounds like a gift to me.

[lynn cates]

anomalies

Hello Viper. Are you suggesting anomalies in Schwartz's story? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

PM

Hello Maria. Regarding your Pipe Man hypothesis: if he were the killer you might need to provide a good, consistent explanation of the following.

1. Pipe Man (Jack) is loitering near Dutfield's.

2. He sees the altercation between BS and Liz and his 3 week's dormant blood lust is aroused.

3. He pursues Schwartz for a fair distance.

4. Doubles back and, perhaps, finds BS gone.

5. Strikes a deal with Liz.

6. They go into the yard BEYOND the gates.

7. She turns around and heads FOR the gates.

8. Retrieves her packet of cachous.

9. Is killed.

This might be very interesting to work on.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Hello Viper. Are you suggesting anomalies in Schwartz's story? (heh-heh)
Good one!
Merry Xmas again, Lynn and Sleekviper.
Can't chat right now, as we're still having Xmas dinner (an early one) and watching DVDS. Your scenario with Pipeman appears OK to me, Lynn, but it could also be that BS and Pipeman were in in together, that BS was trying to hand Stride over to Pipeman, they got disturbed by Schwartz, Pipeman followed Schwartz around briefly to make sure of having gotten rid of him, then Pipeman came back. The possibility of Pipeman having been Le Grand is a very plausible one, but first we have to clear up, if possible, the possibility of Schwartz having concocted his entire testimony from scratch.
Eww, I've already had too much to eat. But the (Aussie) red wine is nice... I don't know if there's still enough room in my stomach for dessert...maybe just a few bites.

[lynn cates]

pincers

Hello Maria. Then, given the veracity of Schwartz, perhaps BS going from north to south and PM just to the south had intended a kind of pincers movement on Liz? I see.

I presume PM was absent for 5-10 minutes. How do you suppose BS kept Liz subdued for that time? And, given the fracas that Schwartz reported, was it BS that calmed Liz down and got her to go for the cachous or PM when he returned?

Cheers.
LC

[Adam Went]

Hi Maria and all (and yes, Merry Christmas once again!),

For what it's worth, there's little doubt in my mind that Pipeman was Jack the Ripper and BS man was just an abusive drunk caught in the middle of it all, but I don't believe they knew each other and I don't believe Pipeman was Le Grand because I don't believe that Le Grand is a good Ripper suspect.

If BS man was trying to drag Liz over to him, why wouldn't Pipeman just walk to the other side of the street instead? Seems the logical thing to do. The fact that he was lighting a pipe doesn't seem to suggest that he was in a hurry to be doing much activity of any sort.....

Cheers,
Adam.