A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[c.d.]

Some very random thoughts here:

The cover up by Schwartz and the Club has gotten totally out of hand and now makes the Kennedy asassination conspiracy look like chump change. If you start by saying that Schwartz lied then you are forced to come up with reasons why. But there is NO EVIDENCE that he did so. This is all pure conjecture.

Why people find the idea of a known prostitute actually soliciting to be hard to accept is beyond me.

We don't know if the BS man actually committed an act of violence against Liz. I urge you to go back and read the first post in the thread. I saw the man pushing the woman. Was that an act of violence? No, he wanted to get away from her. But I only knew that because I understood what he was saying. The woman I saw ended up on the ground just like Liz. If it had been dark or I had turned away for a second, I could have easily assumed that she had been pushed. But I would have been wrong.

All Schwartz saw was a known prostitute being hassled a bit and it might not have even been intentional. Hardly "an act of violence." It only takes on that appearance because of the time frame.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

sightings

Hello Mac. I have grave doubts about all the purported Liz sightings--except PC Smith's. If needs must, i can give the difficulties.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

certainty and clerks

Hello Fish.

"Well, Lynn, Marshall had no doubts whatsoever."

Right. Neither did Ms. Malcolm--that is, not until her very alive sister popped round and had a few choice words for sis.

"The flower - well she must have gotten it at some stage, and the suggestion that a man who kisses her and slowly strolls away with her, his arm around her shoulders, could also be the gent that bought her a flower, does not seem very far-fetched to me."

Not far-fetched at all. But is he then to murder her? I would love to see a sequence whereby this sentimental, quiet clerk turns and kills with his knife. I rub elbows with these types constantly. They do not carry weapons.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Answer coming up later, Lynn - I´m off to a party!

The best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi CD,

Notwithstanding Stride's past life in Sweden, where's the evidence that she was a "known prostitute" in London? The subject wasn't raised at the inquest, and as she wasn't known to have had a rap sheet for soliciting this appears to be pure conjecture.

Regards,

Simon

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. I have grave doubts about all the purported Liz sightings--except PC Smith's. If needs must, i can give the difficulties.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.....

I have doubts....although not grave.....

But then law of averages......Best....Gardner...Marshall...PC Smith...Schwartz...reckon they saw Stride....go for 50% accuracy and it won't be far off.....

Yes....I'm interested in the grave doubts. I wonder how busy these streets were...according to Lawende and associates Mitre Square was dead an hour later.....whereas we have Brown....Mortimer....those mentioned earlier.....people coming in and out of the club etc.

And that's why Schwartz is a strange one.....PC Smith...around there 12.40......Fanny Mortimer at the doorstep around 12.45-1......Brown coming home for his supper think it was about 12.35-12.40......the young couple there before and after the event......Morris Eagle and another bloke forget the name coming out the club 12.40ish....and no one hears sight nor sound of Schwartz/BS Man/Pipe Man.....and in that time only PC Smith sees Stride.....except the man with the parcel....and Pipe Man and BS Man aren't traced nor do they come forward.

On the other side of the coin.....the whole incident could have taken a minute.....so possible that PC Smith passes on his beat and the Schwartz incident happens before Mortimer reaches the door....but then Mortimer says she went straight to the door....and why doesn't anyone from the club remember this? Wasn't there someone from the club sat with a window open right by the yard?

You have to go with Mortimer or Schwartz....both of them can't be right. Difference being that someone verifies Mortimer's story - Goldstein - whereas no one backs up Schwartz.

And how on god's earth did he get out without being seen? With all those people milling about? and those running out the club after the murder?

To me this is the most baffling of all of the murders......more baffling than Kelly's...because we have all sorts of sightings going on and people milling about and no one sees him go in or out. Amazing really.

[lynn cates]

known prostitutes and cops

Hello CD.

"This is all pure conjecture."

Indeed it is. Just as the domestic scenario and solicitation are pure conjecture.

"Why people find the idea of a known prostitute actually soliciting to be hard to accept is beyond me."

Who knew her as a prostitute? Yes, she was registered in another country as a prostitute. Was that because she had a child out of wedlock? If so, we have lots and lots of known prostitutes today.

"We don't know if the BS man actually committed an act of violence against Liz. I urge you to go back and read the first post in the thread. I saw the man pushing the woman. Was that an act of violence? No, he wanted to get away from her. But I only knew that because I understood what he was saying. The woman I saw ended up on the ground just like Liz. If it had been dark or I had turned away for a second, I could have easily assumed that she had been pushed. But I would have been wrong."

Any one or any theory could be wrong. And I completely agree with you about possible interpretations of events going askew.

That said, let me tell you why I have a hard time with the prostitution story. The 2 most often encountered versions go like this.

1. Liz cleans and earns 4d. Why? Well, being a good woman of "business" she decides to invest in a flower and breath freshener--all to enhance her monetary prospects. Was she successful? Not with the poor anarchists. But wasn't Berner a busy thoroughfare? Ahem.

2. Liz goes on a date, things don't work out, she remarks, "Fine. In that case, I think that, while I'm at it, I'll just turn a trick or two."

I leave it to you to decide why these don't inspire me.

But, with your permission, I offer an analogy.

Abberline was a known cop. Suppose that, on his night off, he goes to a music hall with his date. They quarrel. "Very well." he retorts, "I think I'll just go and fight some crime."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sightings

Hello Mac. Hmmm, you have just articulated many of them for me. The G & B sighting sounds purely apocryphal. "That might be Leather Apron getting his arms round you." This sounds like John Kelly's story about "The Knife" and Kate's supposed retort, "Don't you worry for me."

I always look askance at stories that contain such remarks--not to mention, "And the Ripper doubled back and he . . ." or "And after he was imprisoned, crimes of this kind were never seen in London again."

Statistical averages? No faith there, sorry. You might consult Gareth Williams. Do you know what the statistics are for the human genome arising? But here we are chatting happily about JTR and related.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Notwithstanding Stride's past life in Sweden, where's the evidence that she was a "known prostitute" in London? The subject wasn't raised at the inquest, and as she wasn't known to have had a rap sheet for soliciting this appears to be pure conjecture.

Simon, in response to a previous query of yours, Stewart posted on this very site fascimilies of the five (5) police statements which individually classified each and every one of the C5 victims as prostitutes.

I can't locate the exchange at this moment. Members' posts are saved only back to their most recent five hundred. At five hundred posts ago you were discussing Anderson in the NY Times. Stewart was discussing Robert Mann. So it must have been further back in time, when Mellow Yellow was playing on the radio.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Thank you Roy,

I shall check it out . . . quite rightlee.

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

Hi Simon, Lynn,

Was Liz a known prostitute in London? To say so as a fact does appear to be conjecture. Now we know she was a registered prostitute in Sweden but we don't know why. Could it be because she had a child out of wedlock? Possibly. But I think a more reasonable interpretation is that she was known to be a prostitute. She was also treated twice for venereal disease. Does that mean she was a prositute? Well, I guess we have to draw our own conclusions. Sugden (p.196) states "Unless her funds were being squandered on drink Long Liz may only have been an occasional prostitute. This was certainly the view of Thomas Bates, the watchman at no. 32...'when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living....'"

Now a prostitute need clients and she needs to attract them. So investing in a flower and breath fresheners would seem a wise investment. It's not like she was investing in a boob job and a $20,000 face lift. She also might have cared about her personal appearance.

The famous bank robber Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks. He responded "because that's where the money is." Liz is killed outside of a club where men congregate. Draw your own conclusions.

Now Liz may have not been actively soliciting. But is it unreasonable to think that if approached by Jack (who she may have recognized as a former client and wanted to keep as a client) that she would turn down the opportunity to get a little more drinking money? What if Jack had a story -- "I just got paid and I am really anxious for a good time." She refuses. He offers even more money. Is she going to turn that down because she made a sacred vow that she would not solicit that night?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

conjectures

Hello CD. These are not bad conjectures. But, to begin, many people contract STD's from their promiscuous mates. they are not for prostitutes only.

Yes, there were many men at the IWMEC that night, especially before 11:30. But, if you read Rocker or Fishman, you'll know that it is unlikely that Liz got even a nibble (poor choice of words?). No, the biggest Jewish vice was gambling, and they could scarcely afford even that.

Of course, you may be arguing that Liz was just flat mistaken?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I don't understand why you talk about poor anarchists. Liz had a hard life and apparently did a lot of drinking. She was missing several teeth. I don't think that she could have found work in an exclusive brothel that catered to rich customers. It would appear that her options were limited. If the club was not known as a place where prostitutes gathered nearby (for whatever reason), Liz might have figured that that eliminated a lot of the competition and that anarchists get horny like everybody else. It is also possible that she did not deliberately seek out the place in order to solict but simply found herself in that area for some reason. Realizing that the club was full of men she might have thought hey this place has potential. Even if she did not get a nibble as you say she might have thought okay I'll give this place another hour or so. Lord knows that I have spent a lot of time fishing (literally fishing for fish) with no success. It is an occupational hazard.

c.d.

[mariab]

Hello all,
I hesitated to comment on all this, but just couldn't resist: It seems to me that this discussion has been going on and on since mid July (since I was still in South Africa!), in 2 different Stride threads, with NO progress whatsoever. I can almost recite by heart the specific arguments that everyone is presenting. But I guess that, as a newbie, one still needs to come to terms with this frustrating aspect of Ripperology! On another thread recently (discussing Robert Anderson) someone commented on “that goldfish moment“. Well, it seems even more appriopriate here.

Pertaining to the new elements in the discussion, could Lynn Cates offer me some information about what happened at the International Workers' Educational Club at Dutfield's Yard in March 1889? Does this refer to a riot and an alleged fire/arson, suspected to have been caused by agents provocateurs? I'm very sorry to be so ignorant, but I couldn't find any information pertaining to this on casebook and on the internet, and I don't have A-Z or the Butterworth book to cross-reference. And who was Lewis? The president of the club?
Lynn Cates wrote:
Lewis did precisely this sort of thing next March with the riot. The barrister saw through it and denounced it as a pack of lies.
Thank you so much, Lynn.

As of my personal opinion, C.D. stands for the voice of reason in this entire thread:
C.D. wrote:
The cover up by Schwartz and the Club has gotten totally out of hand and now makes the Kennedy asassination conspiracy look like chump change. If you start by saying that Schwartz lied then you are forced to come up with reasons why. But there is NO EVIDENCE that he did so. This is all pure conjecture.
Why people find the idea of a known prostitute actually soliciting to be hard to accept is beyond me.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Now a prostitute need clients and she needs to attract them. So investing in a flower and breath fresheners would seem a wise investment. It's not like she was investing in a boob job and a $20,000 face lift. She also might have cared about her personal appearance.

Were they not luxuries?

Did she need those luxuries to attract clients?

Given a choice...would she have spent that money on alcohol before accessories?

Possibly....possibly in a moment of optimism and self-control she chose self esteem over alcohol.

What do prostitutes today do...heroin addicts? Do they wear the bare essentials......do they go out of their way to wear something appealing or rely on being a piece of meat to do the trick?......Has anyone on the board worked with prostitutes?

I think the jury's out on this one.....until someone with a decent knowledge of prostitutes comes along and sheds some light on their priorities.