A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Fisherman]

C.d:

"Try this on for size. A few minutes before the bar is robbed, a man comes in and asks for change for the cigarette machine. The bartender says sorry we don't give out change. The man responds by cussing him out and shoving him before he exits. Enter the robber a few minutes later. Neither man is aware of the other."

...and we will have two isolated acts of criminality perpetrated against a bar owner by two different fellows within the space of a few minutes - and that, C.d, would be an unusual thing, and something most barkeepers never experience, given the smallish timeframe. And when we scale it up to physical violence by one guy and murder by another within the same time frame, we are dealing with something even more unusual.
Let´s not forget that we need to add a Mortimer lookalike lookout on stage to, rewarded with nothing at all sightingwise, before we can start comparing.

That´s not to say that it could not happen, and we both agree that a prostitutes occupation is one of hazards - but it is a good hard stretch involved here, C.d, I think you must agree with that.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"Con: explain how the devil Liz met her domestic partner so far from Flower and Dean (or even Dorset) st. Otherwise, this is fairly believable."

It has been argued that Kidney could not have been BS man since the drawing of him seemingly depicts a thinnish man. It is a viable suggestion, although we can never rule out Kidney on basis of a drawing from the side, as it stands. It has also been suggested that Kidneys moustache did not fit Schwartz´s description, and it does not - but this too is not much to go on, when one takes into account how much witness descriptions differ,
But the objections have some merit, undoubtedly.

But if you substitute Kidney for another man in Stride´s life, your (small) problem is dissolved, is it not. So why not ponder the fact that Marshalls man - whom Stride did NOT treat as the everyday punter but instead with love and affection, it would seem - and Schwartz´s guy FIT THE SAME DESCRIPTION! And why not realize that Tanner and Lane BOTH said that Stride lived with a man in Fashion Street?

That does give your suggestion number 2 quite a boost, does it not ..?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

whom Stride did NOT treat as the everyday punter but instead with love and affection, it would seem

Can you put some meat on the bones here please.....Fisherman......in terms of what constitutes 'love and affection'? I think this is central to your trail of thought - and being upfront I don't agree with you having read the witness statements and would appreciate an opportunity to pull apart this notion of 'love and affection' which of course is the whole point of this post.

[Fleetwood Mac]

#1 Liz is soliciting by the gates. ”Jack” accosts her, they enter the yard, and the rest is history.

#2 Liz has an encounter with a domestic partner, they enter the yard to discuss their situation. At some point the partner becomes outraged and kills Liz.

#3 Liz is to meet someone at the club. She does; seconds later wishes she hadn’t.

Hi Lynn......

I've read a variant of 3 a few times on this board.......that being that he met them beforehand and arranged to meet them later with the bait of some inducement such as a hat or something or other.

The big flaw in that idea being that these women would not have had the self-control to keep it secret.....they were ill-disciplined.....under the influence......and it's a nigh on certainty they would have blabbed....so any meeting that took place beforehand would have been known to an associate who would have come forward with such a statement.

It's a non starter for me except one possibility. That being they met in the pub about an hour beforehand and he goes home to get what he needs - I could go with that - possibly - though you'd think there would have been witnesses to the two of them in the pub - and it would have had to have been something to make it worth her while - otherwise she would weigh up hanging around for someone who may or may not turn up against more actively soliciting and probably go for the latter. Perhaps he met her in the pub and paid half now - half later - with half now being a princely sum in her world and more than worth hanging around for the half later.

But it's option 1 for me. He only needed a few bob to get these women to go with him and he didn't need to accost them on the street. JTR's method - and it's a logical one - was to get them into dark corners without making a scene - so he could maximise his chances of having a few minutes to butcher them.

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac :

"Can you put some meat on the bones here please.....Fisherman......in terms of what constitutes 'love and affection'? I think this is central to your trail of thought - and being upfront I don't agree with you"

That´s the story of my life, Fleet ...! But of course I can present what I´m leaning against on the affection bit. It´s from the inquest. Marshall speaking:

"[Coroner] What first attracted your attention to the couple? - By their standing there for some time, and he was kissing her.
[Coroner] Did you overhear anything they said? - I heard him say, "You would say anything but your prayers."
[Coroner] Different people talk in a different tone and in a different way. Did his voice give you the idea of a clerk? - Yes, he was mild speaking.
[Coroner] Did he speak like an educated man? - I thought so. I did not hear them say anything more. They went away after that. I did not hear the woman say anything, but after the man made that observation she laughed. They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street. They would not then pass No. 40 (the club).
[Coroner] How was the woman dressed? - In a black jacket and skirt.
[Coroner] Was either the worse for drink? - No, I thought not.
[Coroner] When did you go indoors? - About twelve o'clock.
[Coroner] Did you hear anything more that night? - Not till I heard that the murder had taken place, just after one o'clock. While I was standing at my door, from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all. The deceased had on a small black bonnet. The couple were standing between my house and the club for about ten minutes.
Detective-Inspector Reid: Then they passed you? - Yes.
A Juror: Did you not see the man's face as he passed? - No; he was looking towards the woman, and had his arm round her neck."

So, what do we have here? A perfectly sober couple, him giving an educated impression and speaking mildly, the two of them standing in a doorway for a longish time (not to avoid the rain, mind you, since it was not raining at the time), kissing and making small-talk. After that, when they leave, he puts his arm around Strides neck, fixes his gaze on her, and they stroll away together. In the Times recording of the events, Marshall adds that they were not hurrying in any way.

Now, if I may ask, what elements in this story should remind us of sex sold in the street? I fail to find them, I must say. It all reminds me very much of a lover´s meeting.
And I - of course - also wonder very much why it is that Marshalls man is an exact replica of BS man, clothingwise, appearancewise, lengthwise, staturewise ...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

of course I can present what I´m leaning against on the affection bit. It´s from the inquest.

Fair play for the detail....Fisherman.

By their standing there for some time, and he was kissing her.

It wouldn't be out of the question for a punter to kiss a prostitute.

I heard him say, "You would say anything but your prayers."........after the man made that observation she laughed.

A punter engaging a prostitute in conversation? Nothing unusual there.

When did you go indoors? - About twelve o'clock.

There were witnesses around between 12.35 and 12.55 and there was no mention of this same couple near Dutfield's yard. There was a couple who Fanny Mortimer spoke with before and after the event. Except Schwartz - who did not present it as the 'loving couple' and not one of the witnesses heard sight nor sound of Schwartz and his account. Seems to me that in the event Marshall's couple included Stride - then the man could quite easily have left the area between 12 and 12.30 - particularly as this 'loving couple' including Stride is not witnessed again.

he was looking towards the woman, and had his arm round her neck.

An act of control. Oldest trick in the book. Could quite easily be the onset of manipulating Stride's actions in accordance with his desires.

[lynn cates]

domestic scenario

Hello Fish. You are quite right that Kidney does not match here. I think the main reason is that such a buffoon as he would have cracked under questioning.

Another love interest? Yes, that eliminates my small problem--but seems to engender another. If we are to accept the purported Liz sighting, we seem to have a quiet, clerkly chap. Is he the one who killed Liz? I used to think that--that she was in love with a former punter.

Can you give a sequence where this "boyfriend" leaves Liz, heads north, gets tipsy (the pubs being closed), comes back--Liz being frozen in time outside the club--scuffles with Liz, then heads into the yard with her, eventually taking her life?

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Can you give a sequence where this "boyfriend" leaves Liz, heads north, gets tipsy (the pubs being closed), comes back--Liz being frozen in time outside the club--scuffles with Liz, then heads into the yard with her, eventually taking her life?

Cheers.
LC

Problem being that Marshall doesn't spot the rose.....even though she is facing him.....and PC Smith describes another man (parcel in hand) with Stride nearer the time of the murder. Presumably.....Marshall's man.....if it was Stride....has left the area. Then you're left with conjuring up a situation where Marshall's man comes back to find Stride. Problem being that this school of thought centres on the 'loving couple' as outlined by Fisherman.....who weren't as loving as suggested in the event Stride leaves Marshall's man to go and stand around near clubs.....and if Marshall's man had a problem with her standing around outside clubs and he was prepared to use force to prevent it (as is suggested by virtue of an attack) then surely he would have took her home with him as they walked off......with or without her consent.....rather than leave her to wander the streets.

In my view.....the idea of an enraged partner just doesn't work.

[lynn cates]

replies

Hello Mac. You have a thoughtful post and it requires thought to answer.

In many areas, Liz seems to have lacked self control. She was fond of alcohol and sometimes forgot the self control to be orderly. (Hence, the D & D's.) But the description given at the lodging house seems almost business like--you keep my velvet, you take care of my hymnal, etc. Where's a lint brush? And later, flowers and breath freshener.

I am not sure why such a meeting at the club (as I suggested) is not a starter.

Why do you think Liz was 1. soliciting and 2. a JTR job?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

clerkly love

Hello Fish.

"Now, if I may ask, what elements in this story should remind us of sex sold in the street?"

None, whatsoever.

But what elements of this story suggest that it was actually Liz who was seen and not another lady?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Marshall

Hello Mac. I do not believe the Marshall sighting to have been a Liz sighting.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. You have a thoughtful post and it requires thought to answer.

In many areas, Liz seems to have lacked self control. She was fond of alcohol and sometimes forgot the self control to be orderly. (Hence, the D & D's.) But the description given at the lodging house seems almost business like--you keep my velvet, you take care of my hymnal, etc. Where's a lint brush? And later, flowers and breath freshener.

I am not sure why such a meeting at the club (as I suggested) is not a starter.

Why do you think Liz was 1. soliciting and 2. a JTR job?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.....

Why a JTR job?

Well.....I don't subscribe to the theory that the murders would have displayed the exact same cuts as others suggest. There were too many factors outside of his control. The one consistent theme is that he was swift when on the streets....out of necessity.....in and out....which makes sense as in order to mutilate he needed to give himself time and that could only be achieved through attracting the minimum amount of attention to himself. And the ultimate argument is that two women killers in the same area within an hour is unlikely. It's all on balance of course....and no alternative is out of the question......just unlikely for me.

Why was Liz soliciting?

The alternative suggests she has arranged to meet someone and kept it secret. I don't buy that she could keep it secret - on the grounds of ill discipline. There appears to be various sightings of Liz - Gardner and Best.......PC Smith.....possibly Marshall......so she's at the very least talking to men.......and standing around outside of a club which to me is more likely touting for business. Again...on balance....and nothing is out of the question.

The interesting thing is the rose.....where does it come from....assuming Marshall saw Liz. PC Smith certainly saw a rose.

[Fisherman]

Lynn cates:

"I do not believe the Marshall sighting to have been a Liz sighting."

Well, Lynn, Marshall had no doubts whatsoever:

"I recognise her both by her face and dress. She did not then have a flower in her breast."

...and that is about as good a witness as we are going to get. No hesitation, and an identification using not one, but TWO parametres. So, if it was not Liz, then it was another woman who looked like her facewise and who, by sheer coincidence, dressed in the same kind of clothes - and just how credible is that?
The flower - well she must have gotten it at some stage, and the suggestion that a man who kisses her and slowly strolls away with her, his arm around her shoulders, could also be the gent that bought her a flower, does not seem very far-fetched to me.

Fleetwood:

"The interesting thing is the rose.....where does it come from....assuming Marshall saw Liz. PC Smith certainly saw a rose."

Where indeed? If she did not have the flower in Marshalls doorway, but DID have it later, as Smith testified, who could have bought it for her? Who was she with, strolling away towards Ellen Street?

Fleetwood, I read your post, and yes, customers may kiss prostitutes - but it would not be a very ordinary thing to do, methinks. And yes, punters may stand around with a pro, speaking mildly with her for ten minutes instead of getting down to business - but it would not be a very ordinary thing to do, methinks. And yes, horny guys looking for a quickie may lay their arms around the shoulders of their chosen woman for the night and take a stroll with her while warming up to their true task - but it would not be a very ordinary thing to do, methinks.

In fact, if you asked me to outline a scene with an East end guy striking a deal with an East end hooker back in 1888, I would outline something very much different. I would not use one single element of the ones Marshall described, to begin with.

You asked me if I could put any flesh on the bones of my suggestion of love and affection, Mac. Now, if you do not accept small-talking, kissing, mild manners, standing around, oblivient of the world for ten minutes in a doorway as signs of affection, I think you will be a very hard man to please. Is it a written contract you are asking for ...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

You asked me if I could put any flesh on the bones of my suggestion of love and affection, Mac. Now, if you do not accept small-talking, kissing, mild manners, standing around, oblivient of the world for ten minutes in a doorway as signs of affection, I think you will be a very hard man to please. Is it a written contract you are asking for ...?

10 witnesses testifying to your lover proposing on one knee to our Liz would be useful Fisherman....failing that.....I'm afraid there ain't no love in this sordid affair.....

Small talk? Kissing? Standing in a doorway? Fisherman...in my younger days as an uncouth working class Northerner.....I did far more than that with a plethora of women....and none of them were my lovers. Mind you...in my defence I wasn't exactly prone to cutting their throats and disembowelling them.....but I did pull a few strings to get what I wanted.....and as said....no 'partner' was involved in that. When you're self-absorbed and manipulative to get what you need....as I was a young lad.....then you'll do what it takes to get what you need.....and if you think that kissing someone and engaging them in social niceities equates to 'young lovers' then you're seriously misunderstanding the disorderly.....arrogant.....and love of instant gratification that is a feature of the English working class. You see Fisherman...your lot over there are by and large nice people...same in a lot of contintental European countries....Germany etc.....polite and courteous....the English working class are entirely different.....obnoxious....rude.....self-absorbed...lacking social skills and awareness...a generalisation of course and there are many who would baulk at this idea....but if you ever read accounts of contintental European travellers to England over the centuries they have been appalled at the rough and ready attitude of our working class over here.....many of whom really aren't nice people at all. Being English....and from a working class background...I can readily imagine the East Enders doing what it takes to get what they need....kisses/conversation/flowers anything......you name it.....without regard for the person on the other end of the situation.

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac writes:

"if you think that kissing someone and engaging them in social niceities equates to 'young lovers' then you're seriously misunderstanding the disorderly.....arrogant.....and love of instant gratification that is a feature of the English working class. You see Fisherman...your lot over there are by and large nice people...same in a lot of contintental European countries....Germany etc.....polite and courteous....the English working class are entirely different.....obnoxious....rude.....self-absorbed...lacking social skills and awareness...a generalisation of course and there are many who would baulk at this idea....but if you ever read accounts of contintental European travellers to England over the centuries they have been appalled at the rough and ready attitude of our working class over here.....many of whom really aren't nice people at all."

Sorry, Mac - that does not work. To begin with, I would say that most people of western Europe would be just as ready as you are to feign love to get their way with a girl. And that goes for my fellow countrymen too, I´m ashamed to admit. But why would a customer of Strides have to feign anything at all to get his way with her, when money would be the only key to that particular lock?

Moving on, the exact elements involved in the behaviour described by Marshall stand for the exact same thing in all western civilization and have done so for thousands of years: kissing, small-talking, mild manners, placing your arm around the shoulders of a girl - they all stand for affection and love when it comes to their inherent symbolical value. It is another thing altogether that they do not HAVE to portray honest feelings in each case, but if somebody was faking it in Berner Street, I would say that Stride herself would be the better bet.

You are also, if you´ll excuse me, tripping somewhat over your own arguments when you point the English working class out as obnoxious, rude and lacking social skills, since these are all things that were NOT on display in Berner Street - Marshall spoke of an educated, mild-mannered, clerk-like, softly speaking, kissing and embracing character who was as far away removed from your suggestion that anybody could possibly be. AND he was sober, as was Stride.

And there we go! Of course we may suggest that the behavior recorded may have been feigned or misunderstood by Marshall, just as we may suggest that Marshall got the guy all wrong, since he was in reality a working class ruffian. But that, Fleetwood, flies in the face of what was perceived by Marshall and recorded by the inquest, and no matter how much worse a judge of the English national character I may be than you are, I would say that Marshall - who was there, who was Brittish and who had ten solid minutes to judge what he saw - would beat us both when it comes to making the correct call. And what he spoke of was NOT rough behaviour and it was NOT street smart hooking - it was - exactly! - a caring attitude, love and affection.

The best,
Fisherman