A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Tom_Wescott]

Maria,

Honestly, you can be exhausting sometimes. If I say I cited the census in my Le Grand article, it's because I wrote the damn thing. I also cited the police gazette and newspaper articles.

Adam,

Do your own damn homework. LOL.

I will be honest Tom, my main reason for posting on the thread was because the impression given that it was a known fact that Stride was a Ripper victim. While I agree everyone has their opinions, nothing has been found to prove Liz was a Ripper killing.

It's as much a fact that Stride was a Ripper victim as it is with any of the other Ripper victims. The only reason so much doubt is over her head is because of the many mistakes made by 20th century authors. I corrected most or all of those errors in 'Exonerating Michael Kidney' in Casebook Examiner 1. I really need to have that put in the Dissertations section here on Casebook for easy reference.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Maria,
Honestly, you can be exhausting sometimes. If I say I cited the census in my Le Grand article, it's because I wrote the damn thing. I also cited the police gazette and newspaper articles.

Hi Tom, I assure you I can be exhausting a LOT. Others before you have complained before – in the exact same words.
I promise I'll go again through your article more slowly (I need to re-check the parts about the WVC-IWEC collaboration anyway), and come to the bottom of your citing the census reports and his allegedly having lied about his age. (By the by, Debs is looking into the updated version of Danish census reports, and I'm gonna try finding a book or lexicon or something listing Danish diplomats. I'll ask Fish to help.)

To tji:
It's as much a fact that Stride was a Ripper victim as it is with any of the other Ripper victims. The only reason so much doubt is over her head is because of the many mistakes made by 20th century authors. I corrected most or all of those errors in 'Exonerating Michael Kidney' in Casebook Examiner 1. I really need to have that put in the Dissertations section here on Casebook for easy reference.

Yes Tom, you should totally post your article in the casebook dissertations section, and the way I know Ripperology, it will require much more than this article, it will require until your book is done and out there to make Ripperology's collective conscience () aware of the many mistakes still stubbornly circulating pertaining to the Stride case. I think we've discussed before that in Ripperology (as in most other fields) books are respected/taken seriously/having resonance more than articles, which is a ridiculous mistake, since the good Ripperological books (by SPE/Keith Skinner/Sugden/perhaps Paley) are not exactly recent, the rest of the books coming out are either chockfull of mistakes or sheer outlandish crap, while currently the serious research is presented rather in articles (in Rip and Examiner) than in books. It'll be an ant'sview of Everest to change this perception, but I think casebook can play an important part in changing this, as so many people visit it every day.
By the way, the only serious new books coming out I'm looking forward to reading is Rob House's one about Kozminski and a joint effort by 2 great researchers (which I shouldn't yet name) about the torso murders. That's about it.

[Adam Went]

Yes, definitely get yourself some back issues, Maria - I was going through some old, OLD issues of Ripperologist and Ripper Notes a couple of weeks back, from back in the days when they got mailed out to you by post - there's dozens and dozens of articles filled with brilliant, world class research which has been all but forgotten about now with the passage of time. Definitely worth revisiting for anybody interested.....

Tom:

I have done my own homework, years of it....surely you'll give me an A+ for it?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Garza]

Tom,
finally got reading those articles you sent me. Are you saying that the couple that talked to Mrs. Mortimer are NOT the couple that James Brown seen at the Berner St - Fairclough St intersection? But another couple? Hmm its possible, but Mortimer said a couple around the corner, she never mentioned names. Are you sure the woman interviewed by the newspaper and the lady in the couple are the same person.

Basically the couple that Brown seen could have been:
a) Liz Stride and (probably) Jack the Ripper
b) Spooner and his gal
c) Mortimer's couple
d) another couple

b and c could be the same

Oh to be a fly on the wall when the police ushered all the people crowded around the body into the IWEC. They would have been talking about what they seen/heard or what they didn't see/hear. Its possible that Mortimer talked to the couple here.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garza,

Spooner and his gal were on a completely different street, so they could not have been Brown's couple. Mortimer did not see a couple (I'm sure you know this, but many seem not to), but spoke to a young woman AFTER the discovery of the murder, who said that she and her young man stood at a nearby corner. The young woman interviewed in the newspaper said more or less than same thing, but it transpired that she and her man were long gone from the street by the time James Brown walked by. More than likely, Brown saw Stride with a man, but of course we can never be certain.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Garza]

Hi Garza,

Spooner and his gal were on a completely different street, so they could not have been Brown's couple.

True, but they could have moved from the corner of Fairclough St and Berner by 1am to a different street, but then Spooner would have said that at the inquest.

Mortimer did not see a couple (I'm sure you know this, but many seem not to), but spoke to a young woman AFTER the discovery of the murder, who said that she and her young man stood at a nearby corner.

Yeah I know Mortimer did not see the couple.

The young woman interviewed in the newspaper said more or less than same thing, but it transpired that she and her man were long gone from the street by the time James Brown walked by. More than likely, Brown saw Stride with a man, but of course we can never be certain.

This is what amazes me about the JtR case, if this couple was not Stride and another, you'd think they would have come forward when they realised they were just around the corner from the crime around the time of the murder. Same with the man PC Smith seen Stride with.

[mariab]

you'd think they would have come forward. Same with the man PC Smith seen Stride with.

If the man with the parcel seen with Stride by PC Smith was a IWEC member possibly carrying a package of Der Arbeter Fraint (as it's most plausible that he was), it's pretty clear why he didn't come forward. Instead of that, Schwartz did. I wonder why that is?

Garza, the articles to which you referred, are they Rip 113-115? Just wanted to make sure I haven't missed any relevant lit.

Adam Went wrote:
Yes, definitely get yourself some back issues, Maria
Did.

[lynn cates]

medium rare

Hello Maria. Great reply about Smith's sighting. Wow, it's like you could read my mind.

Well, done! Oh, medium rare!

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Maria. Great reply about Smith's sighting. Wow, it's like you could read my mind.

Actually this happens pretty often. Or not?

Well done! Oh, medium rare!

Don't laugh, but I could make a steak sizzle on my forehead right now (with the fever and all). Gross...

[Tom_Wescott]

This is what amazes me about the JtR case, if this couple was not Stride and another, you'd think they would have come forward when they realised they were just around the corner from the crime around the time of the murder. Same with the man PC Smith seen Stride with.

It's not all that amazing. I'd say most potential witnesses in murder cases don't come forward. If the couple seen by Brown was not Stride and her man, then it was almost certainly another prostitute and a john, so it would have been more amazing if they had come forward. Likewise, the man PC Smith saw may also have been a john.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Tom

My sincere apologies for the time it has taken to get back to yourself. I have now read you article from Casebook Examiner again and also re-acquainted myself with new ideas on the case.

Again well done to you on an excellent article and you have indeed give me something to think about. I had indeed forgotten the first time round that you had pointed out that Kidney would have known who the deceased was before going to the police station (one of my bigger arguments against Kidney).

So although I do have some little questions/inconsistencies, I won't ask them now as it would seem as though I am just 'nit picking.' I am sure they will have been asked previously by others and so will be on the boards somewhere.

So I am willing to admit maybe, just maybe Kidney wasn't Stride's killer, but I am not convinced that she was a Jtr killing. I still believe she could have been killed by someone other than him.

Teej

[c.d.]

Lynn, I can't go through the inquest reports now, but I don't think Schwarz got any back-up. It wouldn't have done any harm for one of the members to say "Yes, I did pop out very briefly, and heard a bit of shouting somewhere in the road outside, so I went in again as I'm a peace-loving man." As it is, one gets the feeling that this poor sod Schwarz is being sent in to bat all on his lonesome.

Just going back over this old thread. Robert makes a good point. Two people corroborating a made up story are certainly more believable than one.

I would also invite those reading this to go back and look at the initial post in this thread as it seems to provide a reason for a bit of caution when automatically assuming that the B.S. man was the initiator of his encounter with Stride.

c.d.

[Rosella]

It's not all that amazing. I'd say most potential witnesses in murder cases don't come forward. If the couple seen by Brown was not Stride and her man, then it was almost certainly another prostitute and a john, so it would have been more amazing if they had come forward. Likewise, the man PC Smith saw may also have been a john.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Exactly! And the man PC Smith saw may not only have been a potential client (Liz thought) but also her killer.

Who knows but that the argument, right next to a Jewish Working men's club. was seen not only by Schwartz but also by this couple. When BS man and the woman he had attacked practically on the pavement had departed, it suited Jack to take Liz into the darkness of the Yard, a little message for the Jews he hated so much.

[Michael W Richards]

Its amazing that people think Berner Street was some hive of activity during the period from 12:30am until 1am. Israel, BS, Pipeman, a prostitute and her beau, a young couple, ....when we have ample evidence from many witnesses that the street anywhere near the gates was deserted when they looked upon it....Morris Eagle, Joe Lave, Fanny, Spooner.

All the unseen activity. All the people only 1 witness sees. All the sounds no-one heard...the arrival of Louis that wasn't seen or heard by Fanny Mortimer while at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am.

Its been quite fascinating on what people choose to believe, not what the evidence has compelled them to perceive.

[c.d.]

I think the first post in this thread is worth rereading. So see it in the context of what Schwartz heard and saw. If he didn't understand English how could even the most adept interpreter have helped? Maybe explaining what Schwartz saw but as we see in the example above that might not have been what was really taking place. Stride could have been the aggressor and responsible for starting the whole business. We just don't know

c.d.