A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[mariab]

Sleek,
it's very evident that in Victorian times the police could not begin to comprehend the “concept“ of serial killing. This is one of the reasons why Abberline initially seemed keen to accept Hutchinson's testimony, and why the theory of a Jewish suspect in an asylum remained popular, etc..
The organ removal thing might have been anything from necrophiliac curiosity to collecting trophies, to cannibalism... By the by, another reason I'm not buying that the double event might have been intended as such is that I can't imagine that the Ripper would pass disembowelling Stride on purpose, just so he stayed “clean“ to approach a second unfortunate later on. The evidence shows that the disembowelling part was crucial to the killer, and that he wouldn't pass on it, unless interrupted. Even at Hanbury Street he went on, despite Cadosch having been in very close proximity. What I actually believe is that, had Diemshitz walked inside Dutfield's Yard WITHOUT his pony and carriage, Stride might have ended up disemboweled too.

[sleekviper]

Maria,
Not mutilating Stride is important to his time management, if he wants a double. The interruption idea just seems to settle hard considering the location is not exactly ideal for privacy. The "helpless female" idea settles hard also since being female does not make one helpless. If they were dumped in a rough part of town, it might bode well, but they are there alive and well. I think the police thought that way also, or may have in theory.

[mariab]

Sleekviper wrote:
Not mutilating Stride is important to his time management, if he wants a double.
That's precisely what I'm not buying! I think that the double event was a result of his having been interrupted. I don't think that a simple cut throat would have “satisfied“ this killer in any fashion at that stage.

Sleekviper:
The interruption idea just seems to settle hard considering the location is not exactly ideal for privacy.
People keep saying this, but in reality Dutfield's Yard is actually very similar a location to Hanbury Street, and even similar to the other murder sites. Especially the escape root of the gate is completely parallel to Hanbury Street.

Sleekviper wrote:
The "helpless female" idea settles hard also since being female does not make one helpless.
I'm not sure what the “helpless female“ idea is, but you're really preaching to the choir here, Sleek. As it happens, I'm a sponsored (amateur) freestyle snowboarder, and having not ridden, jumped, or crash-landed for longer than a week tends to bring depressive episodes on me. This is not a joke. In fact, I'm afraid that sitting around with my pals doing nothing but munching, drinking, and watching flicks like The big chill during Xmas has already brought both a depressive episode plus the inability to go back to work in any efficient fashion today. So I guess there's always a form of (female?) vulnerability, and mine has to do with endorphins.

And Sleek, Berner Street was a rough part of town.

[sleekviper]

See, you agree with me! The thing is that one has to be sure of the motive that the killer had, I think that the police had a theory that did not point toward random kills. These are anything but helpless woman, and they are dieing without so much as much of a peep, let alone a fight. I would be more inclined to think Diem was more lucky than killer being interrupted.

[Adam Went]

Maria:

I see what you’re saying, but as it stands we have no real reason to dispute that Schwartz claimed to have seen. Despite his nationality, he’s got no known ties to the IWMEC and therefore had no reason to be involved in some sort of cover up as has been suggested previously.

And, despite Tom’s protests to the contrary, Fanny Mortimer is right up there with the very worst and most unreliable of witnesses in the Ripper case.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Adam,
as it happens, I've recently found out (through French spy reports, of all things) that there was a Jewish/Polish/Hungarian orator with no good English capabilities named Schwartz (no first name available so far) who was speaking in socialist/anarchists meetings related to William Wess and to Der Arbeter Fraint in the summers of 1902/1903 and in the winter of 1905. Lynn Cates, Debra Arif, and I are trying to identify him closer.

As for Ms. Mortimer, I have to admit that (especially after partying for 3 days non stop) I'm not too clear on the details pertaining to the witnesses for September 30, 1888, but it seems to me than good old Fanny definitely exaggerated the time she spent on her doorstep. At some point later I'll re-read the details, but not before a couple of weeks, as I have to concentrate on my own work for a while first.

[mariab]

Sleekviper wrote:
These are anything but helpless woman, and they are dieing without so much as much of a peep, let alone a fight.
Sleek, I'm afraid these were VERY vulnerable women. Nichols was old and drunk, Chapman was old and seriously sick (in fact, it's often been said that she would have died of natural causes maybe even a month later, if left to her own devices), Stride was old and had a bad leg, Eddowes was probably still drunk and tiny/weak. It's possible that the assailant learned the “hard way“ (through Millwood, Emma Smith, and Tabram) how to blitz-attack without letting the victim scream, i.e., by a stranglehold followed by a cut to the jugular. For Nichols and Eddowes the evidence left behind hints to the possibility of a robbery ruse, which might have prevented Nichols and Eddowes from screaming. By the way, it looks like Tabram and Mary Kelly (who appear to have been stronger than the rest of them) put up a fight, at least it looks like they spotted defense injuries.

[Hunter]

Asphxiation would prevent them from screaming. There was no need for a ruse. The woman thinking that she was about to service a customer would be sufficient. It can be just that simple.

I realize that in Stride's and Eddowes' cases there were no visible signs of strangulation, and yet, if the medicos and police reports are to be believed, there was no arterial spray in either... which can only suggest that these two women were dead before their throats were cut. There was clotted blood beneath their necks, indicating no great force of blood flow. Even if they were alive when placed on the ground there would have been evidence of arterial spray, as in Chapman's case with the blood on the bottom of the fence.

The physicians offered their theories but admitted that they were acually perplexed as to what actually happened during the initial attack. It was a conundrum that never was properly explained and is yet, a mystery today. Whether Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same hand or different ones, whoever perpetrated each, did it efficiently and with no hesitation.

[Adam Went]

Hi Maria,

I've covered Ms. Mortimer's testimony in extensive detail in the past, so I won't harp on about it here, but the short of it is that it's impossible for her testimony to be correct. To use her own words, as quoted in several different newspapers, she was at her door "almost the whole time" between 12.30 and 1 AM, and yet she claimed only to have seen the man with a black bag, later identified as Leon Goldstein - so even if one assumes that Schwartz was telling porkies, she still missed PC Smith, Morris Eagle, James Brown, Liz Stride, Jack the Ripper and Louis Diemschutz, all of whom passed through the street at some point during that crucial half hour.

Now I don't wish to call her a liar, I don't think she was, and she certainly spotted Goldstein - I just think she got confused about her times. Perhaps she'd been at the door earlier in the evening, and was taking one last quick peep when she saw Leon. Who knows. Whatever the case, her testimony cannot be relied on.

As for Schwartz, i'd be very interested in what your research uncovers - especially if it uncovers ties to the IWMEC or Jewish groups dating back to 1888 if it is THE Israel Schwartz. Mind you, Schwartz, as i'm sure you're aware, was and is a very, very common surname for such nationalities...

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

As usual, I agree with almost everything you say, Hunter. The idea about a robbery ruse has generated (by Tom Wescott) due to the fact that some of Nichols' and Eddowes' belongings were found on the ground around their body.
I agree with you that a simple stranglehold would have been enough to incapacitate Stride and Eddowes, but I don't believe any of them was dead before their throat was cut. Particularly with Stride, the fact that she was lying on her stomach while her head was lifted up (most possibly by her scarf) over a stone prevented the arterial spray to reach the wall (vs. the muddy pebbles).
And obviously I firmly believe that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same person.

[mariab]

Hi Adam,
I'm aware of the fact that the time frames in Ms Mortimer's testimony don't fit. Actually I'm always a bit cautious about time frames with the Victorians, even with those who had a watch or who had checked the nearest church clock.
As for Schwartz with no first name, I'm very much hoping that he might have published something in Der Arbeter Fraint, so that we can identify him. My very first thought when I located him was that Schwartz must have been a very common name, but Rob Clack says he's only located about 4 dozens Schwartzes in the 1891 census, which he doesn't consider as too many. Also, not all of them were Polish/Hungarian, and not all of them in the right age. I also hope that at some point Gareth Williams might accept researching Israel Schwartz's past in Poland/Hungary.
The person even more crucial in researching is Le Grand, though. Whether Pipeman existed or not, Le Grand is tightly bound to the Berner Street events. One point that interests me particularly is Le Grand's father. Was he indeed a diplomat, and what are the implications of this? At some point later I'll do everything to clear this up.

[lynn cates]

arterial spray

Hello Hunter. You are correct that Polly and Annie were both strangled (one had a lacerated tongue; the other, tongue protruded). You are also correct that there was no visible arterial spray near Liz. But notice that strangling, in and of itself, cannot prevent arterial spray as Annie was strangled and then cut and yet there was spray.

I am sure, moreover, that all agree on the force of an arterial spray. When I was a graduate student I donated plasma to help make ends meet. I asked the phlebotomist (better: venapuncturist--a subtle distinction) if he'd ever made a mistake and stuck an artery rather than the vein. He replied that he had, but only once. He then described how the needle was forced out and blood went everywhere.

So how can one logically account for absence of arterial spray in Liz's case? Well, try taking a garden hose, insert your finger into the end so that it is, in effect, stoppered. Turn on the water, let the pressure build up, point the hose towards the ground, remove your finger, quickly replace finger into aperture. This should approximate arterial spray. Now, point hose away from the spray marks and remove finger so that water flows freely. Aim hose in direction of spray marks. What happens?

Perhaps I am dense, but I don't see a mystery.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

wet/muddy

Hello Maria.

"the fact that she was lying on her stomach while her head was lifted up"

If this was so, why did the front of her dress not show signs of wetness/mud?

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Hi Lynn,

I'm not sure about the water hose analogy. The heart is a pump, with the force of the spray being regulated by the pressure it exerts... on and off. I, almost tragically, found out first hand a few years ago when I accidentaly cut my wrist at work. The initial cut sent blood spurting for several feet. It was only after I had lost enough blood (which happened very fast) that my pressure dropped, enabling me to keep my thumb over the severed vessel while someone drove me to the hospital, which was fortunately nearby.

I did not say that strangling would prevent arterial spray. I said that death, or at least severely diminished blood pressure would. Chapman was certainly still alive when her throat was cut. A choke hold with the arm across the carotid artery will cause death very quickly with little if any of the usual signs of asphxiation, because cardiac arrest causes the death... not asphyxiation, which takes more time. Stride's "left ventrical was firmly contracted, and the right slightly so... the right ventricle was full of dark clot." I have no idea why Phillips, after making that diagnosis, missed the implication unless he was unaware of the technique. But, this scenerio would also explain why Stride held onto the cachous with an involuntary reflex of contraction... a death grip, if you will.

The police, in some instances, used this method to restrain captured individuals with sometimes unintended tragic results. In fact, it happened with the Metro Police right there in the East End and caused quite a stir in the press. Dr. Phillips was called as a witness and whether intentional or not, gave an incorrect diagnosis of the cause of death of the prisoner. Phillips was a 'company man' so maybe he was shielding the police officers. The jury, even, became suspicious and requested an unbiased medical opinion in future cases such as that.

Both Stride and Eddowes were wearing neckerchiefs which could have hidden any otherwise localized pressure marks.

In either case, no one heard a thing. This may be explainable in Dutfields Yard with the activity going on in the club, but Mitre Square was a virtual amphitheatre with acoustics that would rival a concert hall... yet no one heard anything.

Later, the Mylett case brought all of this into question again. She was found dead in Poplar with no signs of strangulation. Her features were placid... just like Strides, but there was blood coming out of her nose. Dr. Brownfield believed that she had been garroted with a cord. Of course, the police thought that she was strangled by her collar because, once again, there was no sign of a struggle.

Elizabeth Stride was lying on her left side with her face mere inches from the wall. Even with the gutter beneath her, its inconceivable that there would not have been signs of blood splatter if she was still alive... and yet, there was only a clot there, with the rest of the blood oozing down the gutter.

Lynn, you brought up a good point about the mud ( more likely mixed with manure) on Stride's clothes and in her hair. It was caked on her left side with little anywhere else... virtually no sign of a struggle... same for Kate, who gave the appearance of being layed out with her arms extended and palms up. These women were quickly overpowered and killed, then lain on the ground to cut their throat for good measure. For whatever reason, Strides killer had no time to roll her over on her back, if he had intentions to do so after the assault was complete.

[lynn cates]

agreement and otherwise

Hello Hunter. I think we agree that these deaths were swift.

But if Liz had died as you suggest, and not from syncope, surely her grip on the cachous would have lessened and any slight movement of the body would have spilled them?

It still seems to me that, if a throat is cut only 1 or 2 feet from the ground and directly over it, the spray would hit the ground and the later flow would cover the spray marks.

Cheers.
LC