A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[mariab]

Hello Lynn and Adam and all, and Merry Xmas (to the umpteenth time). I'm a bit pissed for not having gone riding Snowtropolis (an indoor snowpark 3 hours out of Berlin) as we were hoping to do today, as the trains have more more less stopped running their schedules in the deep snow. I would have tried my luck and have taken the train regardless, but I'm also a bit sick, so not the greatest idea to run the risk of spending all day stuck at some outdoors train station in the middle of nowhere. So here's to another day watching DVDs. Yawn...
I can visualize Adam Went's scenario, and it definitely seems plausible, but since Pipeman's physical description (which for Victorian times was everything but common) matches Le Grand, I can totally live with the idea that Pipeman might have been Le Grand and that he was nochalant enough to light up while his minion was starting slowly with the abuse on Stride.
Lynn Cates wrote:
Perhaps BS going from north to south and PM just to the south had intended a kind of pincers movement on Liz? I see.
It's a possibility.
Lynn Cates wrote:
I presume PM was absent for 5-10 minutes. How do you suppose BS kept Liz subdued for that time? And, given the fracas that Schwartz reported, was it BS that calmed Liz down and got her to go for the cachous or PM when he returned?
It's pretty obvious that Stride was either aquainted with BS, or not feeling really threatened by him, which to me says pimp or john, as in, another day at the office for her. Especially since it's documented by Dr. Barnardo (for what it's worth) that Stride was “thoroughly frightened“ a few days before her murder.
As for the possibility of Schwartz having invented BS and Pipeman from scratch, even without the existence of Pipeman we have enough evidence that Le Grand was majorly involved in a cover up of the Berner Street murder. Instead of wasting our time visualizing different scenarios, I would suggest researching the following:
- further researching Schwartz no-first-name in the sweater lists and particularly in Der Arbeter Fraint from the summers of 1902/1903 and the winter of 1905 – in case he published something under his full name.
- at some point I'll try to research similar assaults by anyone matching BS's description in the Old Bailey and in the Malborough courts.
- we should most definitely research Joseph Aarons, his financial records, and if he had any trouble with the law. Plus any records that the WVC might have attemped a collaboration with the IWEC.
- research any records for Le Grand having had anything to do with the Okhrana (!). I'll conduct a search about this in Paris as well.
- I'll try to research Le Grand in Danish records, try to figure out his real name and the identity of his dad, the alleged “diplomat“. Then I'll look up Le Grand's bank records in London.
Just making this list (and checking it twice) makes me feel even sicker. But I hope than in a couple days/weeks I'll be up to taking care of parts of it.

[lynn cates]

agenda

Hello Maria. Your research agenda seems sound to me.

Umm, scenarios are NEVER a waste of time. Some items sound plausible until they are visualised, then it seems quite otherwise.

Dr. Barnardo? Yes, I've heard that sermon before. And, speaking of scenarios, try to visualise Liz listening to the good doctor, and then take her purported reply and place it in her mouth. Like what you hear?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

heavy research agenda ;-)

Hello Lynn.
I'm not totally buying Dr. Barnardo's tale, obviously.
Ouch, Lynn, I feel quite a bit sick. But Africola helps.
I can't even fathom doing any Ripperological research before finishing up an overdue proposal, an article, and polishing a couple chapters from my book to send to the editor. If you can believe it, everytime I'm going to sleep, I'm having nightmares about these deadlines. (Well, mostly about my German boss and about the editor.) But in about mid January I hope that all of this is done, so Ripperology it'll be again. And in the meantime, I might at least manage to read the (virtual) pile of electronic mags that are a-waiting.

[Adam Went]

Mariab:

To be honest, and just in my humble opinion, I think it’s something of a fallacy about the height of people in Victorian London……yes, modern day people are bigger and taller overall, but this whole thing about 6 foot tall people being some rare species - some freak that everybody would notice and there could only be one possible candidate in all of the East End - I don’t buy.

The other thing to remember is that the majority of major witness descriptions mention a man of fairly average height, perhaps 2-3 inches taller than the women he was with – which has led me to the conclusion in the past that Pipeman might have been standing on a ledge or step of some sort, sheltering from the miserable weather with his pipe, which added several inches to his actual height – OR, equally as plausible, Schwartz was mistaken, given that his attention would surely have been focused on BS man, the attacker, as opposed to the seemingly harmless figure away from the scene Schwartz walked into…..

Certainly Schwartz himself noted nothing so significant about his height or build that would suggest it was an odd occurrence to him to come across such a person.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Tom_Wescott]

There were crowds outside it for a few days after the murder and a riot, probably people were shouting anti-semitic nonsense. It wouldn't surprise me that they invented a story were gentiles killed Liz in order to take the heat of them.

But I can't see the IWEC doing anything sinister in this instance, from what we know. They were not standing around for 15 mins deciding what to do when they found Liz, unless Mrs Mortimer was completely wrong with her timing - as was Goldstein, and I find Mrs Mortimer probably to be the most realiable witness in the Stride murder imo.

Hi Garza. I think you misunderstood my post. Please read again. I was essentially agreeing that the clubmen were not doing anything particularly sinister, but may have been complicit in some cover-up to save their own butts. Having said that, it's all conjecture.

I too believe Mrs. Mortimer is an important witness, but was pointing out that her impression of the man with the black bag was that he was probably a club member. This proved to be true. It has no bearing on her timing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Adam Went wrote:
which has led me to the conclusion in the past that Pipeman might have been standing on a ledge or step of some sort, sheltering from the miserable weather with his pipe, which added several inches to his actual height –
I seem to remember this from some thread.
I know how difficult it is for witnesses to tell height accurately. And for Pipeman's height I'm not saying “freak“, I'm just saying “out of the ordinary“. We don't even know if Schwartz concocted his story from scratch and if Pipeman never existed, but if he did, it appears that Schwartz would have been equally aware of Pipeman as of BS, since he was briefly under the impression that Pipeman was following him, even chasing him. As for the other witnesses, apparently nobody else noticed Pipeman.

[sleekviper]

Well Lynn, I hope that you are right about no wasted time on a scenario, I have one now for the C5, I think I know what the police were really thinking.

[lynn cates]

officer, what do YOU think?

Hello Viper. Hmm. was it something like "bloody Ripper" or perhaps "!@#$%"? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Well Lynn, lol, from the C5, may be I counted wrong, but the missing organs, are there 5 missing? granted some are not in the whole state, but can it be said that 5 are missing?

[lynn cates]

ah one, ah two

Hello Viper. Well, if you take Annie's uterus and Kate's uterus and kidney, then add MJ's heart . . .

Of course, some of this is still disputed.

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Well if he takes five, he does it as a kill, take two organs, kill, take two organs, one and done. An organ for a victim. Somebody is taking his "pound of flesh"

[mariab]

To Sleekviper:
I like the Merchant of Venice reference.
Sleek, please consider the “evolution“ in the carnage from victim to victim. I'm one of the people who place Tabram (and Emma Smith, and Annie Milwood) in the mix too.

[sleekviper]

Hello Maria. I think that may be a slip. If someone wants a double, the first victim has to be of a fairly quick nature to allow for the second. Carnage to the second is wide open, his goal is met. Just a theory in the works,lol.

[mariab]

Hello Sleek.
There are some Ripperologists who believe that the double event was intended as in, the Ripper went out that night with the plan to kill two. I don't really buy this, and I firmly believe that he got interrupted (by Diemshitz). I know, can I get more traditional than opting for this? ;-) I also could imagine that the GSG might have had something to do with the Ripper's ire at having been interrupted by the Jews in front of their IWEC. (Despite Monty, who's probably the most experienced Ripperologist on all things Mitre Square, disagreeing with this.)
What I've always wondered is if the Ripper didn't necessarily went through a lot of dry runs. I even wonder if many more people than we can imagine might have witnessed him approaching unfortunates, whom he then for whatever (practical) reasons chose not to attack...

[sleekviper]

Hello again Maria.
I really am just thinking how the police might have viewed what was happening at the time, and the pattern of organ removal may have been on their minds. If they did, then they are looking at an intelligent killer, since he began knowing the double would happen. The organ removal also served another purpose in history; if someone sent someone to kill a individual or group, bringing back the entire body was not practical, so as proof something had to be removed. Bringing back the scalp was not always accepted proof since some were known to live. If they entertained that notion, this gets rather interesting.