A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

I understand the significance of being able to establish such a relationship but even if such a relationship can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is still the very real possibility that he saw what he said he saw. That is a point that we can't get around no matter how many aspersions are cast.

c.d.

[Observer]

Hi C.D. The significance is the fact that the Berner Street club members were potentially in very hot water, then enter Schwartz with two ready made suspects - Pipeman the Nordic and BS Man the anti-Semite. If an affiliation between Schwartz and Wess or the club was proved, it could be seen to cast down on his testimony, as it would provide a motive for lying.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

Do you think that the wisdom of the Berner Street club members would extend to inventing a Lipski cursing gentile? Colour me gullible, but the whole Lipski cursing episode smacks of the truth to me.

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Observer. If BS Man existed (and he probably did), then I don't think anyone has suggested that he was affiliated with the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

inductive probability

Hello CD. You are quite right that, even if Wess and Schwartz were close friends, his story about BS and PM could be true.

However, as Tom says, the inductive probability of Schwartz's telling a porky goes up. Why? Because his motive becomes crystal clear. And, in my puny mind, the inclusion of a racial slur looks a bit contrived in this context--if you prefer a bit of frosting with your cake.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

JS

Hello Tom. Regarding BS man, there is a singular description of Johann Stammer given by the discredited Viennese informant. It tallies well with BS man--down to his manner of walking.

No, I haven't changed my mind about BS man. I merely point out another ripperological coincidence. I still consider BS man a contrivance to help Wess extricate his mammary appendages from the wringer.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

But isn't it quite reasonable that BS man would have made some kind of unflattering remark if he wanted Schwartz to stay out of his business? Seems to me that under the circumstances that Lipski was just as good as "hey a**hole" especially if BS man did not like Jews to begin with and Schwartz appeared to fall into that category. It's not like Schwartz had some control over what was said to him.

c.d.

[Observer]

Hi Observer. If BS Man existed (and he probably did), then I don't think anyone has suggested that he was affiliated with the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Sorry Tom, must of confused you with another poster who suggested just that. That is, affiliated with the club and lying to the police in order to lead them into thinking that a gentile was responsible for Liz Stride's murder.

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Observer. The suggestion being made is that SCHWARTZ was affiliated with the club, not BS MAN, who most certainly did not communicate with the police.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Observer wrote:
Do you think that the wisdom of the Berner Street club members would extend to inventing a Lipski cursing gentile? Colour me gullible, but the whole Lipski cursing episode smacks of the truth to me.
Shouting “Lipski“ to each other both between Jews and between Jews and gentiles was a reality (if not a routine) in Victorian Whitechapel. Which makes it both a possibility that it might have happened as witnessed by Schwartz, or that the IWEC concocted their story based on Whitechapel routine.
The fact that Schwartz testified about an “assault“ by a verbal antisemite and a “Viking“ always appeared a bit fishy to me.
To be quite honest, I'm disappointed by the possibility that Pipeman and BS might have never existed. I had kinda grown attached to them...

To C.D.:
Of course Schwartz might have witnessed the assault since it happened in the immediate neighborhood, still, as Tom said in his post #540, an affiliation of the witness with the IWEC brings up ulterior motives for the witness' testimony.
But C.D., it gets MUCH more complicated than this. Bear in mind that Lynn Cates recently discovered that the Russian antirevolutionary organization (the Okhrana) often hired local detective agencies to help with their agenda against the anarchist/socialist movement. Do you know of any detective who pushed his way into the Berner Street investigation?
Plus, to mention one aspect which personally interests me as much as a dog who's sniffed a scent: Was Le Grand's father really a diplomat? Was he ever stationed in Paris? Did he help at all his son financially? What about Cavendish Bentink, the Parliament member and prostitutes' hero whose stepmother was an intended victim by a pimp we all have learned to know and like? Le Grand even claimed he was involved as a spy in the Parnell case. These are a few questions I'm interested in researching.

[lynn cates]

answer

Hello CD. I'm not quite sure I get your meaning. Perhaps I am dense.

My point is that the racial slur may have served 2 purposes.

1. It helped to identify BS as NOT Jewish and hence, not a Jewish Anarchist.

2. To make BS appear even more loathsome than his description gave him to be. (Incidentally, this stunt is fairly common in small claims courts even today. It is analogous to the logical fallacy of "Argumentum ad Hominem, Abusive.")

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

One would have to know the exact conditions for the racial remark to seem true in my view. BS man, for instance, according to Schwartz and the facts, is virtually surrounded. Schwartz and pipeman on one side, room full of people on the other, not good odds at night to be wrestling with a woman, and yelling racial remarks.

[lynn cates]

grand observation

Hello Maria.

" . . . the Russian antirevolutionary organization (the Okhrana) often hired local detective agencies to help with their agenda against the anarchist/socialist movement. Do you know of any detective who pushed his way into the Berner Street investigation?"

Good point and a Grand observation. (heh-heh)

They also hired locals as "penetration" agents.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

!

Hello Viper. Excellent point!

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Regarding BS man, there is a singular description of Johann Stammer given by the discredited Viennese informant. It tallies well with BS man--down to his manner of walking.
Lynn, can you give us a few hints about this Johann Stammer guy?

Tom Wescott wrote:
The suggestion being made is that SCHWARTZ was affiliated with the club, not BS MAN, who most certainly did not communicate with the police.
I've heard that in A-Z or in Paul Begg's The facts there's an erroneous claim that Pipeman was supposed to have been interrogated by the police in early October 1888. Is this completely erroneous, Tom? What about what I've picked up (in some thread) about some police reports allegedly mentioning Pipeman?

[Observer]

I think we are at crossed purposes. The theory I'm reffering to has BS man, and also Pipeman, a figment of the Iwec members imagination,they using Schwartz as the conduit to relay the lie to the police. By implicating a gentile as the perpetrator, they deflect the blame away from the real murderer, that is one of their own members.

Observer