A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Fleetwood Mac]

Lynn, this is what The Echo of october 1st published pertaining to William Wess'es claim (but I'm sure you're already very familiar with this report):
A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.
In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.

Assuming there is any truth in this.......

PC Smith claims he was at the site at 1.00am.

If his time was out then that may change the time he saw Stride depending upon why PC Smith believed he saw Stride at 12.35am. If it was a case of working back 25 minutes i.e. was at the site at 1...my beat takes 25 minutes from leaving a position to returning.....then it must have been 12.35.

It could mean that PC Smith saw Stride at 12.45 and not 12.35.......and 12.45 is corroborated by Mortimer.....and this would add further doubt to Schwartz's account and put your man with the parcel in the frame.

[Fleetwood Mac]

General post......

After reading the thread....

I'm of the opinion....still.....that a vengeful lover theory is beset with too many obstacles to overcome.....too many ifs and buts......I can think of 4 theories that in my mind are more likely than this one......it's the least appealing to me....

I'm of the opinion that were BS Man to attack Liz on the pavement.....then she is not going to wander into a dark spot in the yard for a breather.....giving her attacker ample opportunity to continue the attack....although it's a non starter for me as there are too many holes in Schwartz's account.

I'd say.....still.....that the simplest answer is the most likely....and I know someone will pop up with "don't rationalise the irrational" as per another thread.....sorry...that's the weakest argument/defence since Prince Eddie and his moonlight flits down to the East End just for 'jolly'.......the simplest answer being that she was soliciting and went into a dark spot.....

[lynn cates]

answers

Hello Maria. He resided at 22 Great Samuel Street in 1891 (given that the entry is his and correct).

The Arbeter Fraint? Well, my translator disappeared 3 months ago. I'm still trying to get someone to translate my copy. I'm still checking theatres.

I've not checked Wess' family tree very closely. Perhaps Tom could help you there. If Wess had a hand in ANY of the Stride mess, it would be to deflect blame from the club. He was, by all accounts, a gentle soul.

The IISG allows for copies of papers to be made. Right now I am preparing to retrieve the papers relating to Johann Most and his incarceration due to a police spy's betrayal.

Maps? That would be David gates' department.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
thank you for the Israel Schwartz address from the 1891 census. I'm afraid I don't know who Johann Most was (another socialist, member of the IWMC?), but the best of luck with that at the IISG, esp. if they allow xeroxing (as the Archives Nationales in Paris also do, a fact that's not advertised!).
As for a Jiddish translator, a bunch of my colleagues at the University of Chicago and at the Northwestern (University in Chicago) are (Americans) of Jewish extraction. I'll ask around. I'll even ask my boss immediately, I have to write to him as next.
About maps, I'm afraid I don't know who David Gates is (total newby here!), but the American bookstore Brentano's here in Paris recommended a historical bookstore called Smith (!) here on rue de Rivoli, and I'll go ask there tomorrow. I'll wait a couple days longer for an answer from RipperArt, then I'll go directly to the source, i.e., Rob Clack!

Lynn Cates wrote:
If Wess had a hand in ANY of the Stride mess, it would be to deflect blame from the club. He was, by all accounts, a gentle soul.
Might I ask what makes you say that William Wess was a “gentle soul“? I'm positive that he was devoted to his Club, and that his first concern after the discovery of Stride's body was to safeguard the Club, but, along with Fisherman as quoted below, I've wondered myself about one MAJOR inconsistency in the Echo/Scotsman story about the 2 running men on Fairlough Street: If the source for these 2 newspaper stories was William Wess, as The Echo implies, then the fashion in which Wess reported the story to the papers ("2 unidentified men running down Fairlough Street, one of which {Pipeman} was not a member of our Club“) is not consistent with Wess having known Schwartz and having allegedly even acted as an interpreter for Schwartz's statement when they went together to the police. Unless Wess wanted to protect Schwartz from the press – which I very much doubt. Neither do I think that this might have been a botched job by the newspapermen – in BOTH newspapers?! (Unless the one paper copied the report from the other.) By the way, I read a few old threads about Israel Schwartz and there seems to be no substantiation that he was an actor, just that he had “a theatrical appearance“, whatever that might have meant (strangely dressed? wearing make-up? appearing to be a Victorian homosexual? friend of Tumblety's and having acquired the same fashion-sense?).
Anyway, just look carefully at what Fisherman (very astutely) implies below:

Fisherman wrote:
"The reporter's source was William Wess, who's source was almost certain Israel Schwartz."
So what have we got here, then, Tom? Israel Schwartz reporting to Wess that he had observed a man chased down Fairclough Street by another man? How does that work, considering that Schwartz himself did some running that evening? Ar you suggesting some sort of translation error here?

[mariab]

addendum

Fisherman wrote, on his post #267 on this thread:
The possibility always remains that a member, X, saw the chase, and spoke to Wess about it, pointing out Pipeman as the chaser, a man that both X and Wess may have known by sight. After that, Wess may have related the story to the Scotsman, adding that he knew the chaser but could not name him. There are many possible explanations (and a few nigh on impossible, of course).
This makes much sense too, as another possibility.
As for the newspaper having copied the story from each other, The Scotsman reports the story on October 2, 1888, a full day after The Echo.

[lynn cates]

replies

Hello Maria.

"I'm afraid I don't know who Johann Most was"

A famous anarchist, editor of Freiheit, if I recall properly. Was betrayed to the police, much to the chagrin of William Morris.

"As for a Jiddish translator, a bunch of my colleagues at the University of Chicago and at the Northwestern (University in Chicago) are (Americans) of Jewish extraction. I'll ask around. I'll even ask my boss immediately, I have to write to him as next."

Bless you! Whenever you say, I'll send you a copy of the Arbeter Fraint.

"About maps, I'm afraid I don't know who David Gates is"

He posts as Protohistorian.

"Might I ask what makes you say that William Wess was a “gentle soul“?"

Testimony from men like Rocker and Fishman. But perhaps they are biased?

"I'm positive that he was devoted to his Club, and that his first concern after the discovery of Stride's body was to safeguard the Club"

Precisely.

"But, along with Fisherman as quoted below, I've wondered myself about one MAJOR inconsistency in the Echo/Scotsman story about the 2 running men on Fairlough Street: If the source for these 2 newspaper stories was William Wess, as The Echo implies, then the fashion in which Wess reported the story to the papers ("2 unidentified men running down Fairlough Street, one of which {Pipeman} was not a member of our Club“) is not consistent with Wess having known Schwartz and having allegedly even acted as an interpreter for Schwartz's statement when they went together to the police. Unless Wess wanted to protect Schwartz from the press – which I very much doubt."

But if the press probed too closely, perhaps the truth would out?

"Neither do I think that this might have been a botched job by the newspapermen – in BOTH newspapers?! (Unless the one paper copied the report from the other.)"

Quite a common practice then, as now.

"By the way, I read a few old threads about Israel Schwartz and there seems to be no substantiation that he was an actor, just that he had “a theatrical appearance“"

Again, you are correct. But that is why I am still searching the theatres.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello, Lynn.
Thank you for all the information.
And I certainly know Protohistorian (from his posts). But I think he's American, whereas Rob Clack is born and bred in London, and, even better, he'll be present and hopefully able to help me at the Whitechapel Ripperology conference on sept. 25.
After having dealt with some urgent business with French colleagues, I'm about to write to my boss in Chicago (who's a New Yorker of Jewish extraction, but doesn't speak Yiddish himself), but I'm very hopeful of being able to find someone reading Yiddish in Chicago. Just give me a few days. The people I know from the Northwestern are passionate afficionados of all things Jewish (which is very embarrassing, but here it might come handy!). At the worst, if you're in a great hurry about something in Der Arbeter Fraint, why don't you send the text to me? I can read Dutch, and I've written a book (to be published in 2011) in German, so I might understand a bit of Yiddish. (But you know what they say about the dangers of a little bit of knowledge, so be forwarned...!)
Lynn Cates wrote:
But if the press probed too closely, perhaps the truth would out?
That's why I'm starting thinking seriously about this conspiracy-theory of yours, i.e., of the IWMC having had some share in Schwartz's very problematic testimony.
As for Schwartz's “theatrical appearance“, it would be great if you or someone else found any records of him in any local plays or whatnot. But all censuses list an Israel Schwartz as a vendor at a bakery and tailor. (Which obviously doesn't exclude his having engaged in acting as an amateur.)
Back to writing to my boss, finally.

[lynn cates]

A F et al

Hello Maria. The Yiddish is not transliterated--it's in the original Hebrew script. If you'd like a copy, just send me your email via PM.

I shall continue to check the theatres for our friend Schwartz.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
The Yiddish is not transliterated--it's in the original Hebrew script.
Oh, shoot! This automatically diminished the chances of finding people able to help you in Chicago by 80%! Still, let me ask both my boss (I'm still in the process of emailing with him) and all American-Jewish colleagues I know. I'm hopeful to either find some brave soul having deciding to learn the Yiddish alphabet, or some chair of Jewish studies, either at Chicago, the Northwestern, or some other American University. Americans dig Jewish studies, so there's serious hope of finding someone. Just give me a week or so.
Personally I can't help you at all, if it's not transliterated!
Back to my boss.

[lynn cates]

transliteration

Hello Maria. Thanks anyway. I, like you, used to think that most Yiddish was transliterated, but I have found out otherwise.

I have a translator but he seems engaged presently. Perhaps he'll turn up?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello, Lynn. I just talked to my boss, and the one person I was hoping might read Yiddish doesn't, but it appears that another colleague/friend/professor at Northwestern does indeed read it. I'll email him and ask. Unfortunately, though, and unlike my boss, this person is not the quickest to respond when contacted, but he's very interested in Jewish matters, so he might respond quickly this time. I'll also contact another Jewish friend, a librarian at Northwestern, who's very interested in Jewish matters too, and a very capable researcher. Two years ago I was at a restaurant with this professor friend and the librarian friend from Northwestern, they started talking about the Jewish primary school in N.Y. that both their fathers attended, they got tears in their eyes, and kept researching the matter all evening (and I was bored to death)! But when I'm in Chicago, it totally feels like the land of the Jews! Jewish presence in American academia is unbelievable high, esp. on the East Coast, where they totally represent. )
Perhaps your translator will turn up until then, but let's see what the Northwestern people have to say. Mazel tov! (מזל טוב)

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Maria! Thanks! And good luck.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

No problem. I'll email them later today. I was supposed to go to the Opéra and continue with my research on Le comte Ory (which is progressing very quickly, now that they FINALLY brought all materials at my disposition), but I've been stuck at home, waiting for one of my German bosses to call me back, and he only just did. Been working non stop since midnight, and I'm about to lose consciousness. So I'll make something to eat and go to bed (maybe work a bit from there). The Opéra can wait until early tomorrow. (But the Jewish emails I can do, while eating!)

[mariab]

“Der Arbeter Fraint“

Hello Lynn,
After having slept for 8 hours straight, I've finally written to the Jewish-speaking colleagues at Northwestern in Chicago and I'm hoping for a quick reply, but I have a question: To “lead them on“, I told them that the newspaper issue in question were less than 10 pages long, printed in huge characters. Is that a fact? Also, do you need the entire thing translated, or can you settle for bits and pieces? Naturally, it all depends on if we find a professional translator, who would agree to do the entire thing, or if a colleague does (part of) this as a personal favour. I've also asked some fellow Ripperologists, let's see if they know of someone.
Pertaining to social tensions, there's a new wave of strikes and demonstrations starting today in Paris which worries me greatly. I'm waiting until 10.30 a.m. to hear the verdict if the Bibliothèque de l'Opéra will be open today, or at least tomorrow. If not, I'm in deep, deep shxt. Darn French! A few days ago it was so brutally loud in the streets, it felt as if the French Revolution was starting all over again. You'd better wish me luck with that, all of you...

[Abby Normal]

Hi All,

Here's a question.

What is the one crucial detail in the Israel Schwartz story?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon
I don't beleive you ever answered this-what is it?