where's Liz?

[c.d.]

Yes, I agree, Fish.

c.d.

[Phil H]

I would have thought that perhaps the night of her death was one (maybe one of the few) where she might have ESCAPED being peceived as "soliciting" - which is what being identified as a "prostitute" surely means in practical terms

She might well have been perceived by others as of the "unfortunate class" - but in fact she had taken some pains with her appearance that night (though failing to obtain a clothes brush) and had acquired or been given a buttonhole.

I think she was probably radiantly happy and showing it - she was out with a man she was fond of and who probably was warm towards her - a man (perhaps Jewish and a little above her station in life) - a clerk or artisan maybe).

I don't think she was alone when attacked - I think her "beau" may well have been the pipe-smoking man who had just left her when she her assailant came up to her.

I don't think a potential customer assaulted her, I think Kidney found her.

Phil

Oh, and "opprobrium" means moral disapproval.

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

But Schwartz said that the BS man and the Pipe Man were there at the same time.

c.d.

[Phil H]

Schwartz appears to have said several things and to have been confused (apart from possible language/translation difficulties). With respect, I don't think my interpretation is necessarily an improper one.

I believe that the pipe-smoker WAS there at the same time as the assailant - probably too frightened, too shocked and too careful of his reputation to intervene.

Phil

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

Your interpretation might not be improper but it does have some hurdles to overcome:

1. Why did Kidney kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz (if indeed that was the case)?

2. Why were there no sounds of an argument heard by the people in the club? There was testimony by Mrs. Diemschutz and Morris Eagle that they were sure that they would have heard an argument over the singing.

3.Why did Kidney remain in town after being seen by Schwartz?

4. Why did the police report say that they could not find any link to a person who might have wanted to kill Liz?

c.d.

[Phil H]

All relatively easy questions to answer, c.d.

1. Kidney may have been drunk or so enraged that he could not stop himself, or just didn't think rationally. (I certainly don't think TWO separate men attacked Stride - it defies logic or Occam's razor - so if Schwartz saw anyone, Kidney or not, IMHO he saw the killer.) Your question would equally apply to jtR if HE was the BS man.

2. Something was said, because by Schwartz' testimony the assailant called out a word "Lipski!" as it appears to have been heard. If they did not hear such a cry in the Club, they may have missed other things, especiially of the argument was carried on in low voices.

3. He may have seen no alternative - may not have seen Schwartz (if Lipski was aimed at the pipe-smoker). He tried to brazen it out with the police, and then found his work was being attributed to JtR - and he may well have had strong alibis for the other murder nights. We don't know how much of a "clever" or clear thinker Kidney was.

4. A good deal of testimony is around about Stride's arguments with Kidney, his locking their room, his violence, and the abortive allegation against him. For whatever reason, the police may have focused on JtR and one killer rather than seeking another man.

As with the other women killed there was often a willingness to speak good of them by their friends which might have diluted any information about those who wanted to kill her. Kidney, if he killed her in a rage, might well have been perceived as loving her (in his own way) and as unlikely to harm her. barnett, in November, might be seen as a parallel (whether he killed MJK or not).

So I don't think your points erode my case at all. please feel free to come back at me. I'm not peddling a theory, just trying out models.

Phil

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

Just so I am clear -- are you saying that Kidney was the BS man?

c.d.

[mariab]

Caz,
didn't exactly get the reference pertaining to Perry Mason, having unfortunately never read the books or watched the TV series. (My dad used to read the books, maybe they're still somewhere, although he's dead now.)

Very interesting observations, Phil H., and thanks so much for enlightening me about "opprobrium".
Phil H. wrote:
I think she was probably radiantly happy and showing it - she was out with a man she was fond of and who probably was warm towards her - a man (perhaps Jewish and a little above her station in life) - a clerk or artisan maybe).
In my opinion this might have been a john, AKA the Ripper (a Jew?), pretending to be a wealthy man. Hence her special attentions to her attire that night.
I don't think she was alone when attacked - I think her "beau" may well have been the pipe-smoking man who had just left her when she her assailant came up to her.
No, BS and Pipeman were there simulatenously, and I refuse to believe that Pipeman, if he were her “beau“, would have retreated out of fear or embarrassment and left her cope on her own when she was attacked by BS.
Something was said, because by Schwartz' testimony the assailant called out a word "Lipski!" as it appears to have been heard. If they did not hear such a cry in the Club, they may have missed other things, especially of the argument was carried on in low voices.
Spot on!

A good deal of testimony is around about Stride's arguments with Kidney, his locking their room, his violence, and the abortive allegation against him. For whatever reason, the police may have focused on JtR and one killer rather than seeking another man.
Come on, this is all proven as a hearsay by Tom Wescott in Examiner 1, esp. the bit about Kidney allegedly having locked Stride in. I can imagine Kidney having beaten Stride up occasionaly, but the description of BS doesn't fit Kidney at all. (As, according to your theory, BS would have been Kidney and Pipeman the alleged new “beau“.

As with the other women killed there was often a willingness to speak good of them by their friends which might have diluted any information about those who wanted to kill her. Kidney, if he killed her in a rage, might well have been perceived as loving her (in his own way) and as unlikely to harm her. Barnett, in November, might be seen as a parallel (whether he killed MJK or not).
COMPLETELY agree, and Barnett is very high on my suspects list. But for Kidney, I dont know...

[c.d.]

Hi Maria,

I'll answer for Caz. "Perry Mason" was the user name of an individual who is no longer on the boards. He was absolutely adamant that Jack did not kill Liz and no argument could convince him otherwise.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'd imagine she would be drinking or looking for a punter in order to pay for a drink.

Just wanted to comment on the idea that a man and a woman talking quietly while the woman places a hand on his chest...suggests they knew one another.

I disagree. Why would JTR take the risk of attracting unnecessary attention by means of an audible conversation? And it would be very easy to manipulate Stride's tone of voice - he speaks quietly - she speaks quietly. When was the last time you heard a conversation where one was taking quietly while the other was loud? Humans tend to bend to one another. A half decent manipulator could have quite easily directed the tone of the conversation.

[Phil H]

Hello Maria:

In my opinion this might have been a john, AKA the Ripper (a Jew?), pretending to be a wealthy man. Hence her special attentions to her attire that night.

An opinion that requires us to assume that "the Ripper" (your assumption) "courted" his victims or at least this one? that he pretended to be something he was not? had he "courted" Eddowes in the same way - perhaps going "hop-picking" with her and Kelly, to charm himself into her good books? Bought Nichols her new bonnet?

Sorry too complicated for me.

No, BS and Pipeman were there simulatenously,

I agree - Pipeman was her beau.

and I refuse to believe that Pipeman, if he were her “beau“, would have retreated out of fear or embarrassment and left her cope on her own when she was attacked by BS.

Your privelege, but there are other interpretations. We must disagree.

Spot on! - glad we agree on something!

Come on, this is all proven as a hearsay by Tom Wescott in Examiner 1, esp. the bit about Kidney allegedly having locked Stride in.

I haven't read the article, and Tom's views are his NOT mine. I've read some of his posts, he seems informed, but I wouldn't say he had a monopoly on the truth or was always right.

I can imagine Kidney having beaten Stride up occasionaly, but the description of BS doesn't fit Kidney at all.

We only have one illustration of Kidney which is a good drawing, but is artistic interpretation. Look at the two illustrations of Barnett and see how they differ. I don't find your argument convincing for a moment.


COMPLETELY agree, and Barnett is very high on my suspects list. Thanks for the agreement, I find barnett unconvincing.

I'd also agree that there is no proof of Kidney having killed stride, but I have come to the conclusion in recent years that Liz was NOT a victim of JtR (given the location and the different MO mainly) and Kidney is as good an alternative - and the reasons stack up pretty well.

Thanks for your comments, Maria, and for your time.

Fleetwood Mac - ...the woman places a hand on his chest...suggests they knew one another.

Wasn't that Eddowes?

Phil

[Phil H]

c.d. Sorry I missed your question.

Yes, I think BS man could have been Kidney. I see no reason why not. See my comments in the response to mariab's post.

Phil

[lynn cates]

sic et non

Hello Maria. No, Latin was my doctoral language. I teach logic, philosophy and humanities.

Opprobrium refers to disgrace.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood Mac - ...the woman places a hand on his chest...suggests they knew one another.

Wasn't that Eddowes?

Phil

Yes....true enough....try any 'couple' looking like a normal couple....

[lynn cates]

definitions

Hello Caz.

"do you seriously think the 'prostitute' definition precludes any sexual act other than vaginal intercourse?"

Well, this depends, in turn, on other definitions.

(Great fun, what?)

Cheers.
LC