Was Liz Stride's scarf used by her murderer?

[Fisherman]

Adam Went:

"I'm a little perplexed as to what you could have actually reported me for"

Well, Adam, that would be for the very obvious breach of the rule "Don't slander/libel people", stated in the guidelines for these boards. Stating that I purposefully distort posts would add up to exactly that.

"do you do this to everybody you disagree with?"

Absolutely not. I do it to the ones who break the rules of these boards in a very flagrant and tasteless manner. You are the second poster I have ever reported, as I recall it. I hope you are the last.

"Hopefully some time in the future you may mature a bit and realise that a subject like this isn't a child's tea party."

Adam, the reason you know nothing about my maturity would be that you were not around when it came about. I am in fact so very old and so overwhelmingly matured by now that I regard your suggestions of going about this like a prize fighter somewhat ridiculous. I have done my share of brawling on these boards, and I have come to realize that only the fewest profit from it, whereas the administrators - soundly - resent it.

I will happily discuss anything with you any day in the week, and I will take the hardest of fights over any topic in the Ripper saga as long as you do not resort to false allegations and calling me names.
In the case at hand, the disagreement between us lies in the fact that you claimed that there was no light whatsoever around in the passageway leading into Dutfields Yard. Therefore, you meant, the killer would not have been able to cut Stride as she fell. Obviously you are of the opinion that he may have gotten hold of her somehow, brought her down in some fashion, and then cut her neck just the same, in the exact same environment. For some reason, you think that a simpler thing to do, I take it.
I showed you, amongst other things, Spoonerīs testimony that pointed very clearly to another interpretation than yours, and the only reaction that came out of that was that you claim that I "distort" things. Well, the Spooner testimony is there for everybody to see, as is the Diemschitz ditto. The latter of course spoke of the yard, but light does not stop travelling as it hits darkness, Adam - it pierces through, to a smaller or larger extent. It was also witnessed that the door to the club was somewhat ajar, which would have provided some little light, just as it was witnessed that a crowd of people had gathered around the body as Lamb arrived. Do you really believe that they could see nothing at all, standing there? Then what would they be doing? Holding hands in the darkness, trying to avoid to bang their heads against the walls?

I have never claimed that it was bright inside the passage. I stated that it indeed would have been very dark, BUT NOT SO DARK THAT NOTHING COULD BE SEEN!

But that is water under the bridge by now. You have in a very short time suceeded to become the second poster that I have reported in a number of years on Casebook, and I hope that the administrators will take the time and effort to point out to you just why I did that. Meanwhile, letīs attend to other things than measuring our manhoods.

The best,
Fisherman

[Adam Went]

Fisherman:

Clearly we won't be having a reconciliation of opinion on the matter of the light in the passageway to Dutfield's Yard. You've noted the testimony of Edward Spooner, I've noted the testimony of Eagle, Mortimer, Goldstein and Diemshitz, plus some other points. People can consider that and make up their own minds.
I believe that Liz was strangled in the passageway until atleast unconsciousness, and then the cut to the throat was performed afterwards. Whether or not the scarf was involved in any of this is a little more questionable.
And that's basically what it all comes down to.

That i'm not the first person you've reported is hardly surprising. I can envision you as being the grumpy old next door neighbour type who has a whinge every time the local kids ride their push bikes harmlessly near your property and threaten to call their parents about it. Each to their own I guess - I prefer to fight my own battles.

Anyway, this topic has become counter-productive, not to mention off topic, so it's best left at that.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fisherman]

Adam Went:

"People can consider that and make up their own minds."

Mmm - and if they disagree with you, they are purposefully distorting things and trying to fit the evidence to their own mindsets. Letīs not forget that, Adam, since this openmindedness seems a tad late on your behalf. Way to go.

The best,
Fisherman
grumpy as ever

[Grabbit]

Nice to see everything's normal round here.

Just a small matter and it doesn't make a lot of difference to the overall picture but..... if the killer used the scarf as a strangle/choke device and grabbed her from behind (dark or not), wouldn't her hair be over her collar and the scarf which means he'd most likely grab her hair as well as the scarf. Even if his hand followed the jacket up her back until he reached the scarf/collar area he would still have encountered hair. Since both the police and the attending doctors seem to have been fairly meticulous in their observations I'm reasonably sure even small amounts of hair lying in the area (and I'm sure it would have been lying in the area if not tangled in the scarf), would've been noted.

Like I said, it doesn't help much because all the scenarios are still perfectly possible.

It fits fine with the killer being known to Liz, as in Fisherman's theory. Kidney or whoever (drunk or sober), could still have had his arm around her shoulder as they argued in a domestic setting, possibly even strolling up and down a small area in the alley. As they're facing the gate she makes it clear she's leaving right now and so on....

It also fits fine with Jack's probable approach to the victims, which would, I suspect, have been freindly at the outset at least. Plus, if he turned unfriendly and used the robbery approach, i.e., knife at the throat and 'empty your pockets' (it's another perfectly plausable explanation of the cachous in her hand), he'd still be in the perfect position and turning Liz to face the gateway to get a clear view of the most likely line of approach of other witnesses would fit with the way the evidence points.

If the scarf was used this way that is.

Using it to lift the head would still also be possible if she's laid down on her side from using a choke-hold. That could still explain the arms drawn up as well because her reaction would still be the same if the choke-hold was executed with sufficient speed and the same type of sideways twisting action.

As far as I can see, non of the options can be entirely ruled out unless something more definitive comes to light concerning the knot or bow on the scarf. Without knowing exactly what that was like, I think we're stuck.

To lynn cates. Love the idea of the demo, but seriously, be careful. Pressure on the neck can be unpredictable. We don't want a tragedy just for the sake of a forum. Otherwise I think it's a cracking idea.

Ally

[mariab]

Pertaining to question of light in the passageway to Dutfield's Yard, guys, how 'bout if you all lightened up a bit?!
Grabbit wrote:
Using it to lift the head would still also be possible if she's laid down on her side from using a choke-hold. That could still explain the arms drawn up as well because her reaction would still be the same if the choke-hold was executed with sufficient speed and the same type of sideways twisting action.
Completely agree with this, Grabbit, and a choke hold is the first thing that comes into my mind when I try to picture how it happened.
Grabbit wrote:
To Lynn Cates. Love the idea of the demo, but seriously, be careful. Pressure on the neck can be unpredictable. We don't want a tragedy just for the sake of a forum. Otherwise I think it's a cracking idea.
This is exactly what I've been saying to Fisherman, when he was attempting experiments with some rope and a stick on his son! At least I only experimented with a choke hold and some ligature on my coat hanger, not on a person...

To Adam Went:
Wouldn't it be cool if there was a possibility to contact Kay Scarpetta?! She totally rules (at least she used to do, until she got older, and depressed, and all condencending). Not to be confused with Patricia Cornwell and her silly book on Sickert.

[lynn cates]

caveat

Hello Grabbit and Maria. I shall indeed be careful. In the rehearsal only slight damage was done.

In a worst case scenario, my wife might permanently lose her voice.

I think the demo should begin at once.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn, uh-uh, watch out with the wife! It should be avoided that somebody ends up in ressemblance to the following emoticon.
I'm going downstairs for some dinner now. I'm in J-Bay, South Africa, just arrived and just swam the waves (small but beautifully shaped today), and I have enough bleeding scratches on me to attract a reef shark. (On second thoughts, hopefully not.) And what are they talking about the infamous “super cold“ South African water, the water's totally warm here, just fine in a bikini and shorts? This is a perfect example of “hearsay“ and unreliable declarations.
PS.: Taj Burrow just gave me his old T-shirt (actually a new T-shirt) with a well-wishing message (which I'll most definitely need, both for my surfing and re. sharks).

[Grabbit]

Actually lynn in a worst case scenario I was thinking more along the lines of she might lose the ability to breathe. Unless you've got a massive life insurance policy on her and that was the dastardly plan all along, with the previous postings set to serve as your alibi of innocent intentions......

In which case we've just blown it for you....

Sorry mate....



Ally.

PS. Off topic but...is there a way of changing your user name without having to start a new account? Mine's rubbish. I picked it in a hurry and I've thought of loads of better ones since.

[Fisherman]

Maria writes:

"This is exactly what I've been saying to Fisherman, when he was attempting experiments with some rope and a stick on his son!"

A day or two - thatīs all it took for a silk scarf to turn into "some rope", and for a stick that was never there to be added! Small wonder then, that the passing of 122 years had brought a good deal of distortion to the Ripper case ...

My son asks me to convey his greetings, by the way - heīs feeling better than ever!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

To Fisherman:
Actually it's been about a week since you've tried the experiment on your son, and more than 2 weeks (I remember it very well, I was still in Paris) since you increasingly started babbling about rope and a stick. (I'm just teasing, in fact I can't abide people who distort the truth when referencing. Incidentally it's the exact same thing with the rumors about the incredibly “icy cold water“ here in J-Bay.) Fisherman, best greetings to your son, and by the way, I just had the most amazing fresh fish and seafood plate here, yum yum yum! But if I keep eating like this every night, I'll soon look like a buoy...)

To Lynn Cates:
Here you go, Lynn. Double Idemnity? And by the way, kind regards to your wife. (Do all Ripperologists experiment with weapons on their next of kin? 'Cause I really don't feel like doing it...)

[c.d.]

Better a buoy than a boy.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Oh buoy...uh...I mean boy....was that bad.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Seriously, c.d ...!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Oh boy, I'm feeling as fat as a buoy (EXTREMELY lame, non buoyant joke).
By the way, did you guys know that a bottle of EXCELLENT, world class wine in South Africa costs as much as a glass of much worse wine in Europe or America? I certainly didn't know this fact originally, before coming here, and the results thereof might end up becoming a bit aggravating...

[c.d.]

Speaking of jokes - A snail gets beaten up by some turtles so he goes to the police station to report it. The police ask him if he got a good look at them. He says "no, it all happened so fast."

c.d.

Ok. I'm done here.