How intelligent was Liz?!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Now a thing, that has puzzled me for sometime;

Some members here have been thinking Liz to be the wittiest victim.

What for?!

Why am I asking this?

Because... According to the Certificate of Change "she could read tolerably well but had little understanding of the Bible or catechism."

At least to my eyes this isn't very flattering statement or describing any intelligence.

So, where are the descriptions about her intelligent side?

All the best
Jukka

[sdreid]

Hi Jukka,

Perhaps it was more of a talent than intelligence but she learned a foreign, to her, language and spoke it without an accent according to reports so she had that over the other victims.

[Doctor X]

She did take a first in Middle English Romance poetry . . .

. . .

. . . people were just not hiring. . . .




Concludes it is late and time to get some rest. . . .

--J.D.

[Sam Flynn]

Well, she once ran a coffee shop in Poplar, and may have picked up the "gift of the gab" in dealing with her customers.

Of course, it's possible that the "coffee shop" may have been a front for a "house of easy virtue". This kind of set-up was not unknown.

[Stephen Thomas]

Perhaps it was more of a talent than intelligence but she learned a foreign, to her, language and spoke it without an accent according to reports so she had that over the other victims.

Hi Stan

More of a national talent I'd say. The Swedes (and Danes) speak English beautifully usually without a trace of a foreign accent so Liz may well have appeared more intelligent and more refined than she was. Certainly among the people she was mixing with.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Stephen,

More of a national talent I'd say. The Swedes (and Danes) speak English beautifully usually without a trace of a foreign accent.

That may well be true nowadays - and my experience would certainly confirm it - but that's probably the result of the enlightened education policies that grew up in Sweden/Scandinavia during the 20th Century. Much as I'd like to believe that this enlightened approach reached back to the mid-19th Century, I doubt that very much English would have been taught in Torslanda when Liz was at school. I shouldn't be surprised if - in Sweden as elsewhere - the curriculum consisted only of the bare basics of mother-tongue, mathematics and the Bible. I don't suppose Liz needed much English, over and above "Hello sailor", during her time in Gothenburg either, but I could be wrong.

[sdreid]

Even second generation Swedes here in the States often have traces of an accent. I don't know if the American accent is harder for them to master.

In much of the Northern Tier, remnants of the Swedish accent are now just a regional accent.

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Sam

Fair enough, but there seems to be something in the intonation that sounds 'classy'

Best wishes

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Well, she lived for almost twenty years in London. So, she had time to learn to speak the language fluently!

All the best
Jukka

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Stephen,That may well be true nowadays - and my experience would certainly confirm it - but that's probably the result of the enlightened education policies that grew up in Sweden/Scandinavia during the 20th Century. Much as I'd like to believe that this enlightened approach reached back to the mid-19th Century, I doubt that very much English would have been taught in Torslanda when Liz was at school. I shouldn't be surprised if - in Sweden as elsewhere - the curriculum consisted only of the bare basics of mother-tongue, mathematics and the Bible. I don't suppose Liz needed much English, over and above "Hello sailor", during her time in Gothenburg either, but I could be wrong.

That is indeed true, Sam,
A big education reform was introduced in Sweden in 1842, but as you say, English was not a part of the general curriculum until my generation (I went to school in the early 1970s) - my parents never learnt English in school. The reason for why Swedes TODAY in our modern age are quite good at English (although the Dutch appears to be the best ones in Europe) is because Sweden was heavily Americanized and anglofied in the 1950s and 60s. It had nothing to do with the school curriculum, though, but the fact that American culture had a great impact through music, radio and early televison.
In the mid and late 1800s, writing and reading the native language would be the main subjects besides religion and the Bible (which was considered the most important one).

As for Eliabeth, Jukka most certainly has a point - she lived in London for about twenty years and would during those years have had the time to learn English to a reasonable degree, especially since she initially married an Englishman. You know what they say - the best way to learn a language is to do it while you practice it.

I am not sure if Liz, however, would have been that bad as far as the knowleege of the Bible is concerned. As far as I recall, her school records in Sweden appears to say the opposite, that her Biblical knowledge was satisfactory.

All the best

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Glenn!

So, the pattern of teaching foreign languages in Sweden was about as similar as in Finland (I went to school in the early 1970's too!). Though, we are taught Swedish (and our Swedes are taught Finnish!)

All right, now to the point;

Thanks for enlightening about Liz's school records. Maybe there is a psychological explanation to the difference in the Certificate of Change; she was a bit nervous, moving to another country!

All the best
Jukka

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello Jukka,

Since some areas of your country has such a large population of Swedes I am not surprised some of you were taught Swedish in school. Unfortunately I can't say the same - I have always found Finnish to be quite rustic and exotic, and it would definitely have been fun to be able to speak, read and write it.

well, Liz's Swedish chool records does indicate that she was quite good in school as a child, but then again after that she led a life in Gothenburg that might have brought on a character change.
I am not sure about the rumours about her actually being able to speak jiddisch while in East End (which I can't rule out since most of the people she worked for as a charwoman were Jews), but if this is true it at least indicates a woman who had the ability to learn and pick up things easily.
We should also be weary about the 'intelligence' factor - I would assume that the street knowledge that Liz might have aquired already as a prostitute in Gothenburg (meaning beinding and embeddishing the truth for her own benefit) also could be seen as some kind of 'intelligence'. For someone in Liz's situation (or anyone similar) street smartness would have been essential. It doesn't mean that she necessarily would have been academically intelligent, however, and in all honestly I don't think that she was, although she probably had promising abilites that she - like many other women in those days - never got the chance to explore.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

I went to school in the early 1970's too... we are taught Swedish and our Swedes are taught Finnish!

...that'd be a "Finnishing School", then

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Sam!

If you are thinking about finnishing your foreign trip to Finland, welcome!

All right, Glenn;

If we believe the talks about Mary Kelly being an educated gal, then Liz and her had something in common;

they were pretty good students, but found nothing to do with it!

Except trying to manage on the streets!

All the best
Jukka

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Jukka,

Well, the problem is (as you imply), we don't really know anything about Mary Kelly, do we? Apart from that she received letters from Ireland and that she appears to have been a professional 'unfortunate' when Barnett met her. In contrast to people like Liz and the others, we don't know of any particular trade she indulged in when she was not soliciting. So we don't even know if she possessed any particular skills at all.
Personally, from her character and her actions I don't see any evidence of Mary Kelly being 'educated'. But again, we know practically nothing and we don't even know f what she told Barnett had an ounce of truth in it.

All the best