Lipski

[jerryd]

And I find it incongruous that a killer who took precautions to kill his victims in private, dismember their bodies, destroy their identities, and use dump sites across London, would be the same guy who attacked random women in high-risk locations that were not under his control.

Here's an idea, Harry. Something I was thinking about today, matter of fact.

First, when Henry Wainwright and his brother Thomas cut up the body of Harriet Lane, they did so because she was buried under the floorboards of their "bolthole". Soon, they were to be evicted and knew they must discard the body or be found out.

Similarly, the torso killer may have used a bolthole to kill in 1887 (Rainham) and August 1888 (Whitehall) and then had a situation where he was evicted or forced from the use of the private bolthole. With lodging cheap , and low on cash, he decides to move into a lodging house in the East end. His insatiable desire to kill is filled by murdering victims in the street yet he can't take the big trophies (arms, legs, heads) with him in the open environment. He can take smaller parts (uteri, kidneys,etc) and still feel like the psycho he really is. By June of 1889 he has secured a job and a private bolthole again and murders E. Jackson. Back in business.

Also, a second scenario. Two killers working in collusion. Taking the focus off the other long enough to keep the police off guard. A few months ago I found a news report. I will transcribe it below.

The Echo September 16, 1889

While following up every clue, however slight, which comes in their way, the detectives are not relying upon the theory that the Pinchin street crime was the work of the Whitechapel monster alone. They place more reliance on the assumption that two men placed the burden under the arch, and that the criminals responsible for depositing the woman's trunk last year at the new police offices on the Thames Embankment have participated in the latest east end mystery.

[Fisherman]

According to Dr Phillips' autopsy info, the weight was 67lb, or a tad over 30kg.

Okay, so she was just about where we thought sheīd be. Then the police idea was not about the physical part, since many men could carry that weight for quite some distance. I used to carry my own kids for hours on end when they weighed 30 kilograms.
Today - different matter. My eldest son is 197 centimeters and weighs in at about 110 kilograms...

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Dr Phillips' autopsy info, the weight was 67lb, or a tad over 30kg.

[Fisherman]

She was described variously as stout, and plump, and the arms were not removed, so I would personally go with your higher estimate. But agree, someone accustomed to heavy lifting could carry it a fair distance. Plus, of course, there's always the possibility that the torso man parked his transport somewhere nearby (but off PC Pennett's beat) and carried it only a short part of the way, once he saw the PC leave the area.

Yes, thatīs true, of course. But if so, then the torso could have come from anywhere. My own feeling is that if somebody transported a body in a sack on a cart, that somebody would not be very likely to park that cart very far from the dumping site - but no cart was seen or heard close by the railway arch. Plus I would have thought that for the sack cloth to make an impression, the body would have been carried in it for some time.

Guss what - itīs another uncertainty ...

[Fisherman]

Ooh, found a map with 147 on, before it was demolished.

http://britishlibrary.georeferencer.com/map/3lzABNo3cSk61OK1RxA86C/201312121147-5CfLAM/visualize

It is slightly closer than I thought, but whatever the exact distance, it's still outside the police search radius.

Maybe that's why they never caught the killer?

Now, thatīs an idea, of course - they had to draw the line somewhere, and may have been a tad too quick on the trigger.

If it WAS Lechmere, then this could be his second lucky escape - the door to door would not have entailed Doveton Street...

Thanks for the map, by the way!

[Joshua Rogan]

As for how far the killer would have managed to carry the torso, we are speaking of a smallish woman, around 5,3 ft, and not very bulky. Maybe the part weighed, say, 25 kilograms. Maybe 30. Regardless of which, a strong fellow could have carried it from Cable Street to Buckingham palace, methinks. Regarding the attention part, it is hard to say where the limit goes - presumably when you are spotted. But when is that...?

She was described variously as stout, and plump, and the arms were not removed, so I would personally go with your higher estimate. But agree, someone accustomed to heavy lifting could carry it a fair distance. Plus, of course, there's always the possibility that the torso man parked his transport somewhere nearby (but off PC Pennett's beat) and carried it only a short part of the way, once he saw the PC leave the area.

[Joshua Rogan]

Ooh, found a map with 147 on, before it was demolished.

http://britishlibrary.georeferencer.com/map/3lzABNo3cSk61OK1RxA86C/201312121147-5CfLAM/visualize

It is slightly closer than I thought, but whatever the exact distance, it's still outside the police search radius.

Maybe that's why they never caught the killer?

[Fisherman]

I don't know, I just came across the reference and thought I'd share. Presumably the police thought anything more that 250 yards would be a very unlikely distance for someone to carry the remains of a body through the streets without exhausting themselves and/or attracting attention.

350 yards seems a very low estimate to me, but hey I've been wrong before. Do you have an exact location for no.147?
Google maps does say 0.2 miles, but then it says that for 106 Cable street too.

Not on my map, no - it says 0,1 mile for 106 Cable, Joshua. Todays 147 Cable street is situated 50 yards west of Cannon St Rd, and I suspect that matches the Victorian numbering, but since the houses are much newer, I am not 100 per cent sure. It will take a Goad map or something like that to establish.

As for how far the killer would have managed to carry the torso, we are speaking of a smallish woman, around 5,3 ft, and not very bulky. Maybe the part weighed, say, 25 kilograms. Maybe 30. Regardless of which, a strong fellow could have carried it from Cable Street to Buckingham palace, methinks. Regarding the attention part, it is hard to say where the limit goes - presumably when you are spotted. But when is that...?

[Joshua Rogan]

What decided the limit, Joshua?

The distance looks more like around 350 yards in my book, by the way.

I don't know, I just came across the reference and thought I'd share. Presumably the police thought anything more that 250 yards would be a very unlikely distance for someone to carry the remains of a body through the streets without exhausting themselves and/or attracting attention.

350 yards seems a very low estimate to me, but hey I've been wrong before. Do you have an exact location for no.147?
Google maps does say 0.2 miles, but then it says that for 106 Cable street too.

[Fisherman]

The police report on the finding of the Pinchin St torso has this to say;

"The question of how conveyed is in the region of theory, for if conveyed by cart, then no limit can be fixed, but if by hand about 250 yards would be the limit"

147 Cable Street was probably something like 500 yards from the archway.

What decided the limit, Joshua?

The distance looks more like around 350 yards in my book, by the way.

PS. Checked with Google Maps. They made it 0,2 miles, meaning around 320 meters.

[Joshua Rogan]

The police report on the finding of the Pinchin St torso has this to say;

"The question of how conveyed is in the region of theory, for if conveyed by cart, then no limit can be fixed, but if by hand about 250 yards would be the limit"

147 Cable Street was probably something like 500 yards from the archway.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish keeping out of this on the whole. One interesting point you make. Why 147 cable street?

Why not?

Seriously, because that was the address of Lechmeres mother at the time of the Pinchin Street torso deed. And we know that two years on, she was listed as a horse flesh dealer with her own business.

Suggestion - if the business was already up and running in September 1889 and if she ran it from her home, then there is a fair chance that there were finetoothed saws and sharp knives available at the address. And the implication is that the torso was carried manually in a sack to the dumping place, so we should accept that the distance it was carried was not a very long one.

In December of 1889, Joseph Forsdike (Maria Louisas third and final husband) died from senility and bronchitis, so he will have suffered a period of illness before that. Therefore, it may be that he was treated in hospital during periods, and that the apartment may have been empty for some time. In which case Charles Lechmere may have used it.

So thatīs why I favour 147 Cable Street as the place the Pinchin Street torso came from: because on the surface of things, once again Charles Lechmere has ties to a deed. It should be remembered that he himself lived in Pinchin Street as a child, and that Maria Louisa moved back there a couple of times, meaning that it will have been a street where he was well aquainted with the layout, including the railway arches.

[Elamarna]

The important thing about the Pinchin Street torso is that it was apparently carried manually to itīs dumping site. No cart was seen or heard, and no tracks found - but there were impressions of sack cloth on the skin of the torso.
So it seems it was carried to where it was dumped by the killer, meaning that it would not have come from afar.
My suggestion has always been that it came from 147 Cable Street.

Hi Fish keeping out of this on the whole. One interesting point you make. Why 147 cable street?


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Has anyone actually read the case evidence? Blackwell estimated he arrived at 1:16 by his own watch, he stated at the Inquest that the woman had been cut 20 minute to 1/2 hour before his arrival....hence, 12:46-56. I said nearly 15 minutes.

And I said that the time Louis says he arrived, not when he arrived.

But that does illuminate some issues if you know what the other witnesses said.

There seem to be two versions of what Blackwell said about the time of death. One says she had been dead "from 20 minutes to half an hour when I arrived", the other "I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, at the most half an hour".

[Abby Normal]

Has anyone actually read the case evidence? Blackwell estimated he arrived at 1:16 by his own watch, he stated at the Inquest that the woman had been cut 20 minute to 1/2 hour before his arrival....hence, 12:46-56. I said nearly 15 minutes.

And I said that the time Louis says he arrived, not when he arrived.

But that does illuminate some issues if you know what the other witnesses said.

Hi Michael
Ok I'm lost. so if Blackwell says she was cut at approx. quarter till one and Louis says he arrived at one and Schwartz says she saw stride get attacked by BS at about quarter till one, dosnt blackwells evidence jibe with schwartz-IE that BS man was the one who cut her at about quarter till one?