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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Much appreciated Josh, it was. A bit on the disorganized side lately..thanks for the help.
    No worries. Here is a quote from the Echo 1st Oct. I'd be interested what you make of it.

    "THE OPINION OF THE DOCTORS.
    Although there appears to be very little doubt that both this crime and the murder of the unfortunate in Berner-street about the same time is the work of the miscreant who perpetrated the previous tragedies, the doctors are of opinion that the murder in Mitre-court is a "brutal imitation" of the Hanbury-street murder. At the post-mortem examination, there were- it is stated- indications of an attempt having been made to remove the organ alluded to, but nothing was missing from the body. It is also asserted that there are indications discovered that mutilation was evidently meant in the case of the Berner-street victim."

    Comment


    • While disorganized/organized is somewhat subjective I think what it boils down to is that organized offenders plan out the attack because the fantasy requires it. This means stalking, documenting, actual planning, planning how to get away, without leaving evidence, etc. This would describe BTK - Denis Rader.

      Disorganized, doesn't mean no planning. It just means the murders involve more random elements and the murderer can react unplanned when opportunity presents itself, but may have their killing kit available, know where to take a victim, where to dump them. An example of this is the Yorkshire Ripper - Peter Suttcliffe.

      For example, if Denis Rader came across a prostitute and had the opportunity to kill her, he likely wouldn't, because he needs complete control over everything and hasn't got that because of lack of planning. He attempted it one time to change his target and it didn't work out well from what I remember. Peter Suttcliffe though would take that opportunity and doesn't have complete control. Hence why he was caught literally red handed.
      Bona fide canonical and then some.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Batman View Post
        While disorganized/organized is somewhat subjective I think what it boils down to is that organized offenders plan out the attack because the fantasy requires it. This means stalking, documenting, actual planning, planning how to get away, without leaving evidence, etc. This would describe BTK - Denis Rader.

        Disorganized, doesn't mean no planning. It just means the murders involve more random elements and the murderer can react unplanned when opportunity presents itself, but may have their killing kit available, know where to take a victim, where to dump them. An example of this is the Yorkshire Ripper - Peter Suttcliffe.

        For example, if Denis Rader came across a prostitute and had the opportunity to kill her, he likely wouldn't, because he needs complete control over everything and hasn't got that because of lack of planning. He attempted it one time to change his target and it didn't work out well from what I remember. Peter Suttcliffe though would take that opportunity and doesn't have complete control. Hence why he was caught literally red handed.
        Hi Batman

        Doesn`t this all depend on the intended victims.
        Using your example, Radar had to plan carefully, if he was attacking specific targets that had caught his eye, in their homes.

        Whereas, both Rippers (Jack and Yorkshire), were attacking a type of person who would always be available in a certain area at a certain time.

        So, my view is that the Rippers were as organised as they`d needed to be, for their purposes.
        Last edited by Jon Guy; 03-17-2017, 07:34 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
          No worries. Here is a quote from the Echo 1st Oct. I'd be interested what you make of it.

          "THE OPINION OF THE DOCTORS.
          Although there appears to be very little doubt that both this crime and the murder of the unfortunate in Berner-street about the same time is the work of the miscreant who perpetrated the previous tragedies, the doctors are of opinion that the murder in Mitre-court is a "brutal imitation" of the Hanbury-street murder. At the post-mortem examination, there were- it is stated- indications of an attempt having been made to remove the organ alluded to, but nothing was missing from the body. It is also asserted that there are indications discovered that mutilation was evidently meant in the case of the Berner-street victim."
          Hi Josh,

          Obviously there is room to doubt the article, for one because it states nothing was missing from the body in Mitre Square, but it does convey essentially what I was posting earlier. Phillips answer at the Stride Inquest makes his position clear on Strides wounds...."Coroner: Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - Phillips:There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones."

          The last line is what Ive been saying all along here...presumptions are made about the lack of injuries but the evidence at face value says there was no interruption and the killer ONLY wished to kill Stride.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
            Hi Batman

            Doesn`t this all depend on the intended victims.
            Using your example, Radar had to plan carefully, if he was attacking specific targets that had caught his eye, in their homes.

            Whereas, both Rippers (Jack and Yorkshire), were attacking a type of person who would always be available in a certain area at a certain time.

            So, my view is that the Rippers were as organised as they`d needed to be, for their purposes.
            yup.
            And when the FBI first came up with these categories it was to help them to find out what type of person committed the crime.

            Disorganized killers they determined were usually mentally ill, or young/inexperienced and/or it was the first kill, or trigger kill. Because of this- disorganized sig and MO can be all over the place.

            Not the ripper who evolved and perfected his MO and sig over the course of the series.

            definitely an organized killer. well IMHO anyway.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
              So, my view is that the Rippers were as organised as they`d needed to be, for their purposes.
              Right, but in modern parlance, that would mean disorganized. An opportunist is quite different from a selector, as you know of course, and the Ripper seems to me to have been opportunistic. Anyone who wasn't a little thoughtful was going to be caught.

              Mike
              huh?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                Hi Batman

                Doesn`t this all depend on the intended victims.
                Using your example, Radar had to plan carefully, if he was attacking specific targets that had caught his eye, in their homes.

                Whereas, both Rippers (Jack and Yorkshire), were attacking a type of person who would always be available in a certain area at a certain time.
                Organized offenders target someone over a long period of time. Disorganized find their targets via opportunity. Neither JtR nor the Yorkshire Ripper targeted specific individuals. We know this because their victims were in the wrong place at the wrong time. They could have been elsewhere (doss money and stayed in). Organized offender victims aren't in the wrong place at the wrong time unless in a very general sense. They are exactly where they should be at the time. They are not random targets.
                Bona fide canonical and then some.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
                  Right, but in modern parlance, that would mean disorganized. An opportunist is quite different from a selector, as you know of course, and the Ripper seems to me to have been opportunistic. Anyone who wasn't a little thoughtful was going to be caught.

                  Mike
                  I think in the case of Annie Chapman, if he was the same killer of Polly...which seems highly probable, then he allowed himself to be led somewhere off the streets and he also brought something to take the organs away with him. That seems organized to me. The way he approached the obtaining of her uterus seems planned out as well...beginning with the abdomen flaps. I also believe that choosing both Polly and Annie were acts of spontaneity, based upon the opportunity... their weakness at that moment and their active involvement in solicitation..offered.

                  By using the women who were actively seeking to get strangers into dark quiet places he helped himself.
                  Last edited by Michael W Richards; 03-17-2017, 09:59 AM.

                  Comment


                  • The last line of my last post is basically my premise about at least Polly and Annies murders...their prostituting themselves on the night he came across them was the opportunity he looked for. When he was approached all he had to say was 'lead on".

                    In Liz Strides case we see her talking with men, but not pulling them off into an alley. Why would she choose a spot that was not private when a stable in the yard was? Why would Kate solicit in the City at all, when her supposed boyfriend and every night partner was in the opposite direction? Why would an opportunistic killer enter a small narrow passage to a courtyard with 1 exit when looking for women who were out soliciting?

                    Comment


                    • The Ripper murders had many of the hallmarks of a "disorganised" serial killer, there was little planning or control of the crime scene, he didn't torture the victims or try to conceal the bodies. It's a bloody miracle that the guy was never caught when you think that he was boldly murdering and mutilating women in the street, or in the backyard of an occupied tenement. This was clearly a guy that lived on the edge and not a methodical killer, which kind of puts him at odds with the Torso Murderer.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                        The Ripper murders had many of the hallmarks of a "disorganised" serial killer, there was little planning or control of the crime scene, he didn't torture the victims or try to conceal the bodies. It's a bloody miracle that the guy was never caught when you think that he was boldly murdering and mutilating women in the street, or in the backyard of an occupied tenement. This was clearly a guy that lived on the edge and not a methodical killer, which kind of puts him at odds with the Torso Murderer.
                        What is it you find not methodical with the Ripper?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          What is it you find not methodical with the Ripper?
                          Probably the part where he was gutting women on the street. Organised killers wouldn't take such a risk, they're control-freaks. So, we have one killer who attacks women in the open and leaves them splayed out on display, and another who dismembers them in private, conceals their identities, and dumps their remains in different locations.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                            Probably the part where he was gutting women on the street. Organised killers wouldn't take such a risk, they're control-freaks. So, we have one killer who attacks women in the open and leaves them splayed out on display, and another who dismembers them in private, conceals their identities, and dumps their remains in different locations.
                            There is nothing not methodical about gutting women oin the street, Harry. Not if you are conssitent in what you do, and if there is a trait that outweighs other matters with the Ripper, it is his consistency.
                            He was very methodical in all he did, the way I see it. Same approximate time, same type of victim, same type of damage, same desire to procure organs, same silence etcetera, etcetera. If you can find a more methodical killer, I´d be surprised.

                            As for the comparison between the Ripper and the Torso man - if you prefer to disccuss that - the only real difference is that the Torso man killed indoors, by the look of things. Otherwise, it is the same type of damage, the same type of odd matters like abdominal flap procurement, the same type of victims, the same procurement of innards etcetera.
                            They are certainly the same man - any other suggestion is positively weird.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              Otherwise, it is the same type of damage
                              I don't think you'll find many takers for that assertion, Fish.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                I don't think you'll find many takers for that assertion, Fish.
                                What does that matter - if it is true?

                                And it is. As many really discerning posters have noticed.

                                Abdomens cut open from sternum to pubes - unless you disagree?

                                Abdominal walls cut away in large flaps - unless you disagree?

                                Rings stolen from fingers of victims - unless you disagree?

                                Inner organs taken out, sexually oriented as well as non-sexually oriented - unless you disagree?

                                Parts of the colons cut away - unless you disagree?

                                Necks cut - unless you disagree?

                                Prostitutes attacked - unless you disagree?

                                Do you disagree?

                                I don´t care if there are no "takers" when I know that there should be, Gareth. Can you cite two other cases where there were this many similarities inbetween two serialists in the same city at the same time? Allow me to make your mind up for you - no, you can´t.
                                Last edited by Fisherman; 03-17-2017, 11:51 AM.

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