experimental killing?

[lynn cates]

Hello All. The following are excerpts from 3 of the canonical killings regarding the murder weapon used.

Annie Chapman [excerpt from Inquest day 3. Coroner: Wynne Baxter; Doctor: George B. Phillips.]

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_chapman.html

[Coroner] Was the instrument used at the throat the same as that used at the abdomen? - Very probably. It must have been a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, and at least six to eight inches in length, and perhaps longer. [Emphasis—LC]
[Coroner] Is it possible that any instrument used by a military man, such as a bayonet, would have done it? - No; it would not be a bayonet.
[Coroner] Would it have been such an instrument as a medical man uses for post-mortem examinations? - The ordinary post-mortem case perhaps does not contain such a weapon.
[Coroner] Would any instrument that slaughterers employ have caused the injuries? - Yes; well ground down.
[Coroner] Would the knife of a cobbler or of any person in the leather trades have done? - I think the knife used in those trades would not be long enough in the blade. [Emphasis—LC]

Catharine Eddowes [excerpt from Inquest day 1. Coroner: S. F. Langham; Doctor: Frederick G. Brown.]

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

[Coroner] Does the nature of the wounds lead you to any conclusion as to the instrument that was used? - It must have been a sharp-pointed knife, and I should say at least 6 in. long. [Emphasis—LC]

Elizabeth Stride [excerpt from Inquest day 4. Coroner: Wynne Baxter; Doctor: George B. Phillips.]

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_stride.html

[Phillips discussing and rejecting the “Coram” knife—LC] I am of opinion that the cut was made from the left to the right side of the deceased, and taking into account the position of the incision it is unlikely that such a long knife inflicted the wound in the neck. [Emphasis, LC]
[Coroner] The knife produced on the last occasion [ie, “Coram’s knife—LC] was not sharp pointed, was it? - No, it was rounded at the tip, which was about an inch across. The blade was wider at the base.
[Coroner] Was there anything to indicate that the cut on the neck of the deceased was made with a pointed knife? - Nothing. [Emphasis—LC]

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[Coroner] Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. [Emphasis—LC]In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

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The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat. A short knife, [Emphasis—LC]such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing.

Given the difference of the weapons used in C2 & C4 on the one hand, and C3 on the other, is it safe to assume that C3’s was experimenting with a different knife in her case?

Cheers.
LC

[joelhall]

or indeed that it was a different killer inflicting the wounds.

note that he doctor, when questioned, also states that a knife used in a post mortem could not have been used. and a knife used in animal slaughter may have if 'well ground down'.

according to kashrut of the jewish faith, slaughter of animals should be carried out with a sharp knife devoid of any nicks, serrations or irregularities along its edge (i.e. should be a very well ground perfect blade). if indeed an animal does have its throat cut with such a knife it is unfit for human consumption.

this needs to be done inflicting as little pain as possible on the animal, quickly, with a single long cut right through the windpipe and blood vessels of the neck.

again, if the animal fails any of the above (or the sochet does) the meat is unsuitable.

as an interesting aside, animals slaughtered must be checked for any disease after this has been carried out... just throwing it out there.

whilst a horse slaughterer may not necessarily have his blade in such a good condition, a sochet most certainly would.

just throwing the idea out there

just to make one thing clear however - unless they were vegans, these women were most certainly not kosher!

[lynn cates]

table the motion

Hello Joel.

"or indeed that it was a different killer inflicting the wounds."

Shhhh! You know THAT'S not on the table.

The best.
LC

[joelhall]

Hello Joel.

"or indeed that it was a different killer inflicting the wounds."

Shhhh! You know THAT'S not on the table.

The best.
LC

ill keep schtum for now...

whats your take on this? do you believe it indicates that the same killer used a different knife, or that a different killer struck in each case?

more importantly, do you believe that the same knife was used any of these murders?

in the eddowes case, the blade is believed to have been sharp-pointed, whereas in the chapman case, the doctor is asked whether a bayonet would have been used, and he replies it would not. this is the only information in this document which mentions any type of blade with a sharp pointed end, although i admit there is nothing for and against the assumption in this inquest report - it is simply not mentioned.

[lynn cates]

stories

Hello Joel. I have seen suggestions about one man with two knives. I have also heard the "experimental" story as well.

I will hear what others have to say.

The best.
LC

[Hunter]

knife

Phillips based his assumtion on the weapon having a short blade because of the body being on its side and he thought that a short blade knife would be easier to reach below the left jaw in that position. But since it was only one cut, drawn rapidly across the throat if you will, I find it difficult for anyone to determine much on just that. Remember she also had a scarf around her neck that had to be an impediment.

I believe Phillips thought that Eddowes was killed by someone other than who killed Nichols and Chapman too.

Best wishes,
Hunter

[joelhall]

Phillips based his assumtion on the weapon having a short blade because of the body being on its side and he thought that a short blade knife would be easier to reach below the left jaw in that position. But since it was only one cut, drawn rapidly across the throat if you will, I find it difficult for anyone to determine much on just that. Remember she also had a scarf around her neck that had to be an impediment.

I believe Phillips thought that Eddowes was killed by someone other than who killed Nichols and Chapman too.

Best wishes,
Hunter

no more an impediment than cutting through muscle tissue, large blood vessels subcutaneous fat, possibly cartilage or gland tissue, even going as far down as the vertebrae. if there was a great impediment it would be due to the scarf falling under the knife during its motion and lead to serration of the wound, a sudden stop to the line of the incision or superficial scratching and abrasion.

also, the depth and length of the cut, not to mention the line cut and its route would give good clues as to the blade that was used. longer blades going deep will of course follow a better path than that of shorter blades, more likely to alter the path they follow as they hit tissues of different densities. and the speed of the cut would be more likely to change during the action as it did so.

using a shorted blade will of course not allow for such a deep cut during the motion either. if one were to use a short bladed knife for this type of wound, one would find that the end of the blade would enter the cavity of the wound and drag before it had finished its path of travel.

remember also, that doctors of all sorts would be familiar with different types of incision and lacerations produced by different blades, not just surgeons.

as an experiment, try slicing a loaf of bread with a long bread knife and then with a pen knife and you will notice the difference pretty much instantly.

i have to wonder why, if this was the work of the same killer, he would pick a knife less suited for the wound he intended to inflict in a later murder. surely experimentation leads to improvement over time of a method?

whilst im sure he probably wouldnt know the ins and outs of the anatomy of the neck, having done this before he would know its no mean feat to almost sever a head using a knife, and its doubtful he would change to a 'lesser' weapon half way through he spree.

[c.d.]

Hi Joel,

Sugden does a good job of addressing the knife issue and concludes, based in part on the testimony of Dr. Llewellyn, that the knife used to kill Liz Stride was similar to the one used to kill Polly Nichols. (p. 211 of "The Complete History of Jack the Ripper").

Sugden also concludes that it seems probable that she was killed by the slayer of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman.

c.d.

[joelhall]

thanks c.d., not read this for a long while, but i think ill have a good look at it later tonight

joel

[lynn cates]

clean knife/dirty knife

Hello Joel. It's also possible that his long knife was dirty and he neglected to wash it. I hadn't thought of that earlier.

The best.
LC

[joelhall]

dirty from what though, that is the question

[corey123]

Lynn

I really think still the knife used in liz was the same knife used in the other four canonicles. There is no evidence whatso ever pointing to a different one. I dont see the point in this thread since no good use will come from it.

yours truly

[lynn cates]

experts

Hello Corey. Perhaps no use. But the expert testimony?

The best.
LC

[corey123]

The expert testimony states "unlikely that such a long knife inflicted the wound in the neck." He never said it was impossible. The neck wound was different for many reasons, the scarf, the most likely possition of the killer,ect.

And they also stated that a "rounded pointed knife would handicap the assailent" so thats not the case. It was a very sharp knife and may have even been the same throughout the five killings.

But it does make you wounder doesnt it lynn.

Yours truly

[lynn cates]

wounds

Hello Corey.

"The expert testimony states "unlikely that such a long knife inflicted the wound in the neck." He never said it was impossible."

Corey, in ANY induction, "logically impossible" doesn't occur because that refers to deduction.

"The neck wound was different for many reasons, the scarf, the most likely position of the killer, e[tc]."

Liz was not the only victim wearing a scarf.

"And they also stated that a "rounded pointed knife would handicap the assail[a]nt" so that[']s not the case."

But did you not read there is NO evidence of a pointed tipped knife? Surely these doctors had more expertise than we? Don't forget, they actually SAW the wounds.

The best.
LC