Did jack kill liz stride?

[Fisherman]

Observer: Hi Fish

Polly Nichol's was not hanged, she was nigh on decapitated. Hanging is no comparison to near decapitation when assessing whether the heart would have been beating three minutes after the initial injury. Surely you realise this?

Yes, Observer - I actually do realize that. And I hope that YOU realize that Stride had her left carotid artery cut off, and the doctors still allowed for her to have lived on for a couple of minutes.
The heart may keep pumping for some considerable time even after a violent death like the ones of Stride and Nichols. It may also stop very quickly after such a death. It varies from case to case, but cutting a neck is not tantamount to pulling an immediate switch on the heart. And I do not appreciate having sharing this knowledge called "tosh".

No it is not in line with what you are suggesting, I quote

"perhaps thirty seconds before Paul entered the stage, we could well have a respiration system gasping away and blood flowing freely."

A mere thirty seconds, between gasping away, and a faint movement? Did he even detect a faint movement? How would you detect a faint movement in those conditions? He didn't even notice that her throat was cut.

Yes, Observer - a mere thirty seconds. None of us knows how it went down, but thirty seconds is a long time in these circumstances. The heart needs to be fed with oxygen and other vital substances to pound on, and they WILL run out rather quickly with a cut neck (although not necessarily in a matter of three seconds). The heart may thus beat wildly after the cut, the victim can gasp for air - and then the system can all die down, leaving perhaps just that electrically induced odd twitch of the heart that Paul may have felt.

Nothing at all strange with that scenario, Iīm afraid.

Paper talk nothing more. We had a deep wound to the throat what else do we need, of yes, blood flying out of the wound. Neil was either misquoted, or fed a leading question. Under oath, at the inquest he stated exactly what he had witnessed, that is, blood oozing out of the wound. Mizen observed the same phenomena.

How do you know that Neil stated "exactly what he had witnessed", Observer? Were you there? How do you know the remove of time that had passed since the neck was cut? It could be seconds only.

Iīll help you answer: you do not know. And why should you be given the prerogative to decide how much blood comes out when oozing? Google gives 1 180 hits for the combination "oozed profusely". Hereīs a quote from a professional: "the vascular spaces were indeed visible during surgery and the lymphatic fluid oozed profusely during the operation."

Now, Observer, seeing as we have Neil saying that it bled profusely, and seeing as it had not even stopped bleeding as Mizen arrived, perhaps two, three minutes later, what do you think is the reasonable interpretation?

That it bled very little as Neil saw her, and then it bled very little as Mizen saw her too? A cut neck resulted in a very slow emptying of the blood, sort of?

Or that the blood flow tapered off successively, and the blood oozed profusely out of the wound when Neil saw here, whereas it had tapered off to a slow, dying stream when Mizen did?

Which suggestion is most compatible with the kind of death Nichols died?

Tosh indeed.

Yes - lots of it.

What is the matter with people? Why not read up before flinging horse manure? It will end up in your own face otherwise.

Cross favoured dead over drunk for one reason, he realised that Polly Nichols was quite dead.

Of course - I had forgotten that you know these things. Silly me.

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Itīs a fair enough assumption. Moonbegger - but not a safe one, I feel. If Tabram was the Ripperīs, then we have a progression in the abdominal interest, with Tabram only receiving a probing, smallish cut to the abdominal surface, whereas Annie was cut totally open and lost organs.

My own feeling is that Nichols would have received the same treatment - but we canīt be sure that the killer had developed a wish to extract organs at this stage. Chances are that he had no further aim but to lay the abdomen open.

The best,
Fisherman

Hello Fish ,
I have been in and out of the Tabram camp probably as many times she was in and out of the pub .. But standing alongside the strong possibility that Polly's killer may well have been interrupted , limiting her mutilations for me now ( at this moment ) it seems unlikely that Tabram was killed by the same hand .
The knife was different .. she was not strangled first , she was still alive during the stabbings , it seems to me a completely different MO .

My own feeling is that Nichols would have received the same treatment

So we have three women ( Polly , Annie & Kate, ) all , who would have had, and did have very similar mutilations ( strangled , ripped open , missing uteri , facial cuts & slices ) a very particular MO ?

So back to my original point about Liz Stride's murder ..

One of the few things that don't quite gel for me , as far as Stride meeting her maker at the hands of the Ripper is this ... We have all been led to believe since day one, that once the killer had been disturbed by diemschutz , unsatisfied and frothing at the mouth he set off rampaging through the streets in search of another victim to unleash his pent up aggression and fury upon .

So he finds Kate , mutilates her and removes her uterus , just as he did with Annie , and just as he would have done with Polly if he had not been disturbed by Cross . And here is the thing .. once he is interrupted by Cross , does this blood thirsty monster set off rampaging through the streets in search of another victim to unleash his pent up aggression and fury upon . No , he heads back to his safe house / bolt hole , wherever ! with this apparent driving urge to remove organs fully under his control .

Unless of course it was CrossMere .. and the sole reason he could not go find another victim was because he now had Paul in tow

cheers

moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

[QUOTE]

Hi all,

Regarding Polly Nichols:

Moon is probably correct on most counts, but some things which are being called facts are not facts .

Hello Tom , I try to avoid the facts at all costs

cheers

moonbegger

[Fisherman]

Hello Fish ,
I have been in and out of the Tabram camp probably as many times she was in and out of the pub .. But standing alongside the strong possibility that Polly's killer may well have been interrupted , limiting her mutilations for me now ( at this moment ) it seems unlikely that Tabram was killed by the same hand .
The knife was different .. she was not strangled first , she was still alive during the stabbings , it seems to me a completely different MO .

So we have three women ( Polly , Annie & Kate, ) all , who would have had, and did have very similar mutilations ( strangled , ripped open , missing uteri , facial cuts & slices ) a very particular MO ?

So back to my original point about Liz Stride's murder ..


Unless of course it was CrossMere .. and the sole reason he could not go find another victim was because he now had Paul in tow

cheers

moonbegger .

I donīt think you have to buy into Lechmere to sort this out - Nichols was earlier in the series. Serialists get bolder as they manage to kill undetected.

That could easily be enough to explain this bit.

But, of course, if you think the best explanation is the Lechmere/Paul connection, then who am I to deter you?

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Sleek,

I think your hypothesis is actually workable. The caveat of the finger marks remains, but what the doctors took as finger marks may not have been so. Good work.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Polly Nichols

Either Polly's killer was interrupted and he took no organs, or he was not interrupted and he did in fact take organs. The evidence is conflicting and could lead to both conclusions. But it is not a hard fact that no organs were taken from Polly. What is a hard fact is that after Polly's windpipe was cut she was no longer taking in any oxygen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

But, of course, if you think the best explanation is the Lechmere/Paul connection, then who am I to deter you?

I was kidding about the last bit Fish .. but who really knows eh !

moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Either Polly's killer was interrupted and he took no organs, or he was not interrupted and he did in fact take organs. The evidence is conflicting and could lead to both conclusions. But it is not a hard fact that no organs were taken from Polly. What is a hard fact is that after Polly's windpipe was cut she was no longer taking in any oxygen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom ,

So what exactly did that pesky prowler pinch from poor ol Polly ?

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

alliterate person

Hello MB. Oh, don't practise your alliteration on me. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Joe. Good to see you posting.

You're suggesting that BSM reached around behind her and pulled? Would he not be off balance?

But if she had turned and faced west, he could indeed have pulled her back onto the pavement or Berner. Of course, her feet would have been pointed west--not east.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

As to the direction Liz's feet pointed in death, have you considered that her killer might have shifted her body so that he could go through her pockets while watching for any threats to himself? Just a thought.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom ,

So what exactly did that pesky prowler pinch from poor ol Polly ?

moonbegger

How could I possibly know? That was Llewellyn's job.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sleekviper]

Hello Lynn!
I think that the encounter with BS started the wheels turning for "fight or flight", and with instinct in play, a scurry after being thrown down, with a sad attempt to stand, was met with the sudden pull from BS backward, and then force changed to a sudden downward motion. Too many clothes to get much motion beyond a failed scamper and stand. If she is in flight mode, getting her back to him is first priority. I don't go beyond those 20 seconds since that means theory invasion, and BS may have caused the bruises without having to be the killer. Seems odd to have fruit stains on the large handkerchief though, would have saved that for bodily fluid transfer if soliciting. I mean always, not just that evening, a permanent large cleanup handkerchief so food and business didn't become crossed on the same item. That part, and the sequence are odd; if Schwartz begins the story at the gate, Stride is at the gate, BS comes to a stop at the gate, why isn't Strides voice heard before BS stops? Thinking out loud again.

[lynn cates]

mutilatus interruptus

Hello CD. Thanks.

Yes, considered, and all items are on the table . . .

. . . until, of course, one remembers where the wet and mud were on her dress and the fact that she had cashous between thumb and forefinger.

Moreover, your suggestion is at loggerheads with mutilatus interruptus. IF the dead person is to be rifled, then it would NOT likely be between the initial throat cut and the second one (cf. Polly and Annie).

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Go west, young lady.

Hello Joe. Thanks.

Also, with BSM and Stride at the gate, and being thrown down there, we need Liz to retreat 5 more feet westward.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Polly Nichol's was not hanged, she was nigh on decapitated. Hanging is no comparison to near decapitation when assessing whether the heart would have been beating three minutes after the initial injury. Surely you realise this?

Yes, Observer - I actually do realize that. And I hope that YOU realize that Stride had her left carotid artery cut off, and the doctors still allowed for her to have lived on for a couple of minutes.
The heart may keep pumping for some considerable time even after a violent death like the ones of Stride and Nichols. It may also stop very quickly after such a death. It varies from case to case, but cutting a neck is not tantamount to pulling an immediate switch on the heart. And I do not appreciate having sharing this knowledge called "tosh".

Hi Fish

I thank you for sharing the above knowledge, however it still remains tosh.

Hanging, and near decapitation are not comparative when considering heart failure.

Also, Liz strides injuries were nowhere near as severe as Polly Nichols. The vessels on the right side of Liz Strides neck were uninjured. The left carotid artery was only partially severed.

Dr Philips

"From this is was evident that the haemorrhage was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery."

I'm no medical expert, but I'm assuming that Liz Stride's heart would have taken more time to cease than Polly Nichols.

No it is not in line with what you are suggesting, I quote

"perhaps thirty seconds before Paul entered the stage, we could well have a respiration system gasping away and blood flowing freely."

A mere thirty seconds, between gasping away, and a faint movement? Did he even detect a faint movement? How would you detect a faint movement in those conditions? He didn't even notice that her throat was cut.

Yes, Observer - a mere thirty seconds. None of us knows how it went down, but thirty seconds is a long time in these circumstances. The heart needs to be fed with oxygen and other vital substances to pound on, and they WILL run out rather quickly with a cut neck (although not necessarily in a matter of three seconds). The heart may thus beat wildly after the cut, the victim can gasp for air - and then the system can all die down, leaving perhaps just that electrically induced odd twitch of the heart that Paul may have felt.

Nothing at all strange with that scenario, Iīm afraid.

"May have felt", being the operative words here. I believe Polly Nichols was long gone, still, silent, beyond repair, stone dead, by the time Cross, and Paul found her.

Paper talk nothing more. We had a deep wound to the throat what else do we need, of yes, blood flying out of the wound. Neil was either misquoted, or fed a leading question. Under oath, at the inquest he stated exactly what he had witnessed, that is, blood oozing out of the wound. Mizen observed the same phenomena.

How do you know that Neil stated "exactly what he had witnessed", Observer? Were you there? How do you know the remove of time that had passed since the neck was cut? It could be seconds only.Iīll help you answer: you do not know.

I don't know? What do you mean? Neil is on record, he appeared at the inquest. No I wasn't there but there were individuals there who recorded what Neil stated, and he stated under oath, that when he found the body he noticed that blood oozed out of the neck wound.

Also, I'm confused here. what do you mean by

"How do you know the remove of time that had passed since the neck was cut? It could be seconds only"

Are you referring to the time elapsed between the neck being severed, and Neil finding the body? Because if you are, were not talking seconds, were talking minutes. In my opinion many minutes. Of course I don't believe Cross is the murderer.

And why should you be given the prerogative to decide how much blood comes out when oozing? Google gives 1 180 hits for the combination "oozed profusely". Hereīs a quote from a professional: "the vascular spaces were indeed visible during surgery and the lymphatic fluid oozed profusely during the operation."

Neil did not sate "oozed profusely", you're putting words into his mouth, in a very similar vein to the newspapermen who interviewed him after the murder. The newspaper reports have Neil saying that when he found the body the neck was bleeding profusely, at inquest he stated the neck oozed blood, note, not oozed profusely. There is a world of difference, between oozed, and bled profusely.

Now, I ask the casual observer, which description do you prefer? The one supposedly given to the newspapermen, that is, bled profusely? Or the description given at inquest, in font of a jury, under oath, namely, oozed?

Now, Observer, seeing as we have Neil saying that it bled profusely,

You mean, bled profusely to the newspapers, allegedly. Oozed at inquest, entirely different to bled profusely.

and seeing as it had not even stopped bleeding as Mizen arrived, perhaps two, three minutes later, what do you think is the reasonable interpretation?

That it bled very little as Neil saw her, and then it bled very little as Mizen saw her too? A cut neck resulted in a very slow emptying of the blood, sort of?

Or that the blood flow tapered off successively, and the blood oozed profusely out of the wound when Neil saw here, whereas it had tapered off to a slow, dying stream when Mizen did?

Which suggestion is most compatible with the kind of death Nichols died?[/B]

Slow dying stream when Mizen arrived! Dying stream? She'd been nearly decapitated at least 5 minutes before Mizen arrived, in my opinion 15 minutes, and a stream is still visible, come of it man.

Nichols had bled out by the time Neil arrived at the scene, her heart had stopped beating, and the little blood that was left in her body, oozed slowly out through the wound by the action of gravity. Both Neil, and Mizen witnessed this phenomena, and said as much at inquest, under oath.

Tosh indeed.

Yes - lots of it.

What is the matter with people? Why not read up before flinging horse manure? It will end up in your own face otherwise.

Tosh indeed, zooming in from Sweden. I've just had a look in the mirror, and all I see, is the George Cooney lookalike that's been there for some time now (I wish) not a hint of horse muck.

Cross favoured dead over drunk for one reason, he realised that Polly Nichols was quite dead.

[B]Of course - I had forgotten that you know these things. Silly me.

Cross knew, believe me.

Regards

Observer