Did jack kill liz stride?

[Fisherman]

I will - once I get the answers to the questions I posed.

The best,
Fisherman

[Observer]

Suggestion - letīs stop flinging **** on each other for the time being - and find out a little something about how these things work. I have done some research and I have contacted a specialist in forensic pathology, and I hope to have a little something to bring to the table in days to come.

Deal?

Fisherman

Upon reflection, the thing is Fish, you are going to stick to the theory that Neil observed blood flowing profusely from Nichols wound when he found her, and I am going to stick with the inquest report when he stated that the blood merely oozed. You will maintain that Paul detected Polly Nichols faintly breathing, while I will maintain he was mistaken It's a no win situation I'm afraid.

regards

Observer

[Abby Normal]

ooze. what a lovely word now that i think about it- ooooooze. let it roll off the tongue.

Would make a great name for a band- The Ooze.


I would think that ooze means to seep or flow very lowy. Ooze profusely would be an oxymoron wouldn't it? Actually the word ooze may even be an onomatopoeia, as it seems to flow rather languidly when spoken.

What a cool word. Ooze.

[Fisherman]

Upon reflection, the thing is Fish, you are going to stick to the theory that Neil observed blood flowing profusely from Nichols wound when he found her, and I am going to stick with the inquest report when he stated that the blood merely oozed. You will maintain that Paul detected Polly Nichols faintly breathing, while I will maintain he was mistaken It's a no win situation I'm afraid.

regards

Observer

Thatīs only until I provide medical evidence that the heart can go on pumping for many a minute after decapitation. Which is what I am aiming to do. More on that later, though.

As for oozings and profusions, I am rather hoping that once Iīve proved you wrong on one count, the other one will follow by implication.

If i fail, however ... Nah, letīs not be negative here. If you are the guy looking like George Clooney, itīs only fair that I am the guy whoīs correct.

The best,
Fisherman

[Observer]

Thatīs only until I provide medical evidence that the heart can go on pumping for many a minute after decapitation. Which is what I am aiming to do. More on that later, though.

As for oozings and profusions, I am rather hoping that once Iīve proved you wrong on one count, the other one will follow by implication.

If i fail, however ... Nah, letīs not be negative here. If you are the guy looking like George Clooney, itīs only fair that I am the guy whoīs correct.

The best,
Fisherman

Remember Fish, regarding looking like George Clooney I remarked that I only wished I looked like him. In reality, think a cross between Charles Laughton, and Grouch Marx. Regarding the definition of oozing, that's written in stone

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

ooze. what a lovely word now that i think about it- ooooooze. let it roll off the tongue.

Would make a great name for a band- The Ooze.


I would think that ooze means to seep or flow very lowy. Ooze profusely would be an oxymoron wouldn't it? Actually the word ooze may even be an onomatopoeia, as it seems to flow rather languidly when spoken.

What a cool word. Ooze.

Hi Abby I'd agree with your definition. Wouldn't "The Oozers" sound better than "The Ooze"

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Thatīs only until I provide medical evidence that the heart can go on pumping for many a minute after decapitation. Which is what I am aiming to do. More on that later, though.

As for oozings and profusions, I am rather hoping that once Iīve proved you wrong on one count, the other one will follow by implication.

If i fail, however ... Nah, letīs not be negative here. If you are the guy looking like George Clooney, itīs only fair that I am the guy whoīs correct.

The best,
Fisherman

Also

No negativity on your behalf. Have you the answer already?

[caz]

Concentrating on the purpose of this thread...

"Assault" is a powerful word and used too often by writers who want to impress something upon their reader. Any prostitute working the east end could expect to be treated poorly multiple times a day. Just in the Ripper case I'll point out that Sadler was assaulted thrice in one day, Emma Smith and Margaret Hames went out in the evening together, Hames returns with a beaten face followed later by Smith with fatal injuries. Coles goes out with a friend - a man approaches the friend, she refuses his custom and punches her in the face - only because Coles accepted the man's offer was she not beaten. You want to know what WAS rare in 1888? Women getting killed on the street with a cut throat...and yet many will have you believe Stride and Eddowes were unrelated murders. These same writers will tell you how impossible it is for a prostitute to be "assaulted" twice in the same area. Rather selective reasoning I would say. The odds of Stride being an unrelated murder are extraordinarily small, whereas the odds of an East End prostitute being treated roughly on the night of her murder would be nowhere near as small. However, neither scenario is impossible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Excellent post, Tom. Your feel for the East End of the 1880s, and the giant leap from men who routinely ill-used unfortunates to the rare few who risked the gallows to murder them, is appreciated - by me at least.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Thatīs only until I provide medical evidence that the heart can go on pumping for many a minute after decapitation. Which is what I am aiming to do. More on that later, though.

As for oozings and profusions, I am rather hoping that once Iīve proved you wrong on one count, the other one will follow by implication.

Just read what Neil said. Blood oozed. Oozing is a slow flow of blood, akin to seeping. It would indicate that it wasn't pumping out, but was more of a gravitational flow. The only question might be if Neil used the wrong word. If not, it couldn't have been a spouting fountain of blood. Oil oozes from a leak. Pressure such as what a pump would provide (like the heart) would create a spurting of blood. Anyway, it doesn't matter to me except to stop arguing about this. It's clear...much clearer than oozing oil.

Mike

[caz]

Ted Bundy killed about 20 women before his first 'double event'. Most importantly, the Ripper would have felt more vulnerable when he killed Nichols, and damn near omnipotent following the Chapman inquest. Also, the press reported that Chapman was one of two women killed that day and that graffiti was found written by the killer near the scene. None of these things were true, but the streets were filled with the rumors. I think the Ripper wanted to live up to his reputation because it's strange that within weeks of these rumors circulating, it actually happened. This might explain why the Ripper got an early start that night as not just Liz but Kate also was killed at a much earlier time than the other women.

And since whoever posted this expects his robot Ripper to behave the same every time, I have to assume he doesn't think Mary Kelly was a Ripper victim since all her private parts were present and accounted for.

More interesting observations from Tom here.

I do think the ripper would have read all the reports about his crimes and been amused by all the false rumours and outlandish theories. After Chapman, when the womb harvesting theory took over from the Leather Apron scare, he could have set out to make monkeys of them all with his very next job, hence the early, distinctly shaky start with Stride; the second attempt that left Eddowes without one kidney and her womb (possibly only taking the latter to show this was the same "womb harvester who wasn't") and facial mutilations for the first time (to demonstrate this was really not about organs for profit or medical research - "the morons"); and of course the three locations - including the apron dumping site - with Jewish connections, to suggest the focus had just been wrongly switched away from those tricky "Juwes".

Of course, we could dismiss all these factors as incidental and have Stride killed by a different man for different reasons, then Eddowes killed within the hour and just fifteen minutes' walk away by yet another man for different reasons again. But would we end up closer to what actually happened that night or a million miles further away?

Love,

Caz
X

[sleekviper]

Hello Lynn!
I was putting motion into BS dude and Stride once Schwartz picks up speed. Sorry, I should have stated as much. If Schwartz picks up speed, and I was BS dude, I would already keep an eye on those around, as well as Stride, so slight movement would happen. If I hear his foot steps pick up the pace, and he is well past me and Stride, why has he done so? Police? gang of friends? My motion would then increase to view further down, but I have to keep Stride in full view since she may carry a knife for protection, and stab me in my blind spot or back. Stride's adrenal gland should be sending adrenaline to her body full on by now, her brain screaming to get away. She starts to move, tries to stand, BS dude reaches and grabs the collar area that is bowed out before she can become fully in a standing position. If Stride has a bad leg, she is going to rise higher on one side than the other; so that first harsh pull is going to affect one side more than the other. BS dude will quickly negotiate where the opening to the yard is exactly, step that way, and pull the collar with force again. One more step, out of plain view, forceful pull back, extra forceful pull down. After that is anyone's theory on the death of Stride, but the bruises on her make sense to me from how this started out. He could have realized that this was about as dumb an idea as could happen, and left right then and there, or not. The bruises though, I can see coming from him.

[Fisherman]

Observer:

Remember Fish, regarding looking like George Clooney I remarked that I only wished I looked like him. In reality, think a cross between Charles Laughton, and Grouch Marx.

So now, just the one famous star is not enough?

Regarding the definition of oozing, that's written in stone.

Thatīs a very fertile ground to work with, I have to say! How about this question: Can something ooze a lot or a little, respectively? (Clue: "oozed a lot" has 40800 Google hits, "oozed a little" has 86900 - and thatīs written in stone to. Or on the net, at least).

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Also

No negativity on your behalf. Have you the answer already?

I have half of it. When I get the rest, youīll be the second to know (I was the first, remember?).

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

The Good Michael:

Just read what Neil said.

Then I will need a book or something.

Blood oozed. Oozing is a slow flow of blood, akin to seeping. It would indicate that it wasn't pumping out, but was more of a gravitational flow.

Right. Thatīs my take too. I donīt think for a split second that she was pumping out blood at that stage; two or three minutes had passed since the carmen left her.

The only question might be if Neil used the wrong word.

Not really. If you read up on the thread, you will find that there are two questions. One is the question you ask. The other is "Did Neil say that it bled profusely as he spoke to the press in the immediate aftermath of the murder?".

What Iīm after is that oozing blood can be rather a lot of blood. That is why people say "It oozed profusely", "It oozed a lot" etcetera. Oozing can apparently be a broad flow, producing rather a lot of blood, long as the speed at which it flows is a slow one. And this is what I think Neil saw, and something that would make all ends meet when it comes to what he was reported to have said.

It is of course also totally in line with Lechmere being the potential killing, so in this case I gues Iīm fair game for anybody who wants to point me out as totally mad about the Lechmere theory. Thatīs sad, but I can do little about it - Neil was said to have stated "profusely" first, then he said "oozed" at the inquest, without specifying, and we know that the expression "oozed profusely" has around 1200 hits on Google, whereas "oozed a lot" has 40800.

So I do the math, and I once again recognize that things potentially point to Lechmere on this detail too. People will say that I only do the math in one way, but I open up for the possibility that someone else was the killer, but if so, that somebody struck very, very close in time to Lechmereīs arrival. And got away clean, in spite of all the watchmen and PC:s that were around.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Concentrating on the purpose of this thread...



Excellent post, Tom. Your feel for the East End of the 1880s, and the giant leap from men who routinely ill-used unfortunates to the rare few who risked the gallows to murder them, is appreciated - by me at least.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks, Caz. Another of my favorite chestnuts from the anti-Stride camp is the one about how the Ripper wouldn't have killed Stride in the yard because the spot was too "dangerous" because of the noise or whatnot. To that I have two things to say...

1) He got away with it, didn't he? and
2) Name me the OTHER guy besides Jack who was prone to slice throats in precarious places like backyards and the open street!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott