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How many other murders like Stride's ?

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  • #1

    How many other murders like Stride's ?

    Hello everyone,
    After viewing this site for several weeks and realizing I had become addicted to it I finally joined these forums.

    My interest in JTR began as a teen when I checked out a book from the library called "When London Walked in Terror" by Tom Cullen. Although I never bought into the various "Case solved" books over the years, like many I had developed some preconceived notions about the case that I now question. The belief that Liz was a victim of the Ripper was one of them.

    The great threads on this has caused me to reconsider my previous notion but it leaves me with a couple of questions.

    First- given that violence and abuse against women at that time seemed to be common, how many other "unfortunate" women (outside of the canonical five) were found with their throats cut in the East End during the fall of 1888?

    Second- It has been suggested that Liz might not have been "working" that night but possibly may have had a date or a prearrainged engagement- hence the cachous, flower and not prepaying for her lodging- but why was she apparently seen with several different men and was still on the street at 1 p.m.?

    Forgive me if these have been previously addressed. I tried to read as many post as possible before adding my own but there's alot of information here and I might have overlooked it.

    Merry Christmas everyone,
    Hunter
    Best Wishes,
    Hunter
    ____________________________________________

    When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Hi hunter.

    First of all welcom to the forums.

    There are two murders similar to the Liz murder.
    1)Alice Mckenzie
    2)Francis Coles

    Happy holidays.
    Washington Irving:

    "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

    Stratford-on-Avon

    Comment

    • #3
      Q & A

      Hello Hunter.

      "why was she apparently seen with several different men[?]"

      Are we sure that they were different men?

      Was the usual method of solicitation in the LVP to pick up me in a pub whilst remaining sober?

      The best.
      LC

      Comment

      • #4
        Lynn,

        she most likely wasnt soliciting at the time of her death due to some points.
        Her stait of dress.
        The smoking pills.
        Her asking for a clothes brush.
        ect.

        yours truly
        Washington Irving:

        "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

        Stratford-on-Avon

        Comment

        • #5
          well dressed prostitute

          Hello Corey. I think that too. Of course, one might point out that there's nothing wrong with a well dressed prostitute.

          The best.
          LC

          Comment

          • #6
            Lynn,


            Yes,but her attire points more to a date or special occasion,meeting her killer perhaps?

            Yours truly
            Washington Irving:

            "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

            Stratford-on-Avon

            Comment

            • #7
              yes

              Hello Corey.

              "her attire points more to a date"

              Absolutely. But I must think of the other side too.

              The best.
              LC

              Comment

              • #8
                Weight

                Its always good to view both sides of the window, but we both have probally already done that.

                yours truly

                ps have you found any other interesting entrys in the ives diarys. I have read the entrys you sent me, he shortly discussed chapman and kelly. Iv read your updated on the ives post but Im curious.
                Washington Irving:

                "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                Stratford-on-Avon

                Comment

                • #9
                  Ives

                  Hello Corey. Yes, he discusses Coles and says she is #8. Send an email and I can send another PDF. Of course, we are forbidden to post it.

                  The best.
                  LC

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                    Hello everyone,
                    After viewing this site for several weeks and realizing I had become addicted to it I finally joined these forums.

                    My interest in JTR began as a teen when I checked out a book from the library called "When London Walked in Terror" by Tom Cullen. Although I never bought into the various "Case solved" books over the years, like many I had developed some preconceived notions about the case that I now question. The belief that Liz was a victim of the Ripper was one of them.

                    The great threads on this has caused me to reconsider my previous notion but it leaves me with a couple of questions.

                    First- given that violence and abuse against women at that time seemed to be common, how many other "unfortunate" women (outside of the canonical five) were found with their throats cut in the East End during the fall of 1888?

                    Second- It has been suggested that Liz might not have been "working" that night but possibly may have had a date or a prearrainged engagement- hence the cachous, flower and not prepaying for her lodging- but why was she apparently seen with several different men and was still on the street at 1 p.m.?

                    Forgive me if these have been previously addressed. I tried to read as many post as possible before adding my own but there's alot of information here and I might have overlooked it.

                    Merry Christmas everyone,
                    Hunter
                    Hi Hunter and welcome aboard!

                    You seem to have struck upon some contentious points regarding the 3rd Canonical murder.

                    As to your first question, if you wish to narrow your scope to similar type knife murders to that of Liz Strides only that same Fall.....you wont find "many" others. There is the case of the husband James Brown (same name as the stride Witness, different man),....who cuts his wife's throat the same night as the Double Event, but thats not a street woman getting assaulted with a knife, its Domestic violence.

                    In 1888 there are Whitechapel murderer killings, Jack the Ripper killings, and there's also Torso creating. Only Liz Stride to my knowledge has a throat cut with the absence of any additional stabs.

                    As to why would Liz be out on the streets at 1am if she was not soliciting.....its important to remember that Liz and Polly and Annie and Catharine were effectively homeless women. They had a bed only if they paid for it or the landlord extended them one on credit, and daily, they would need to find the 4d they would need each night to just sleep indoors in other than a workhouse....not great places. Couple that with known tendencies toward drink, and the obvious need for food....how long could they survive NOT soliciting.

                    That being said, in Liz Strides case, we know that she had the money for her bed in earned wages from that afternoon, with 2d to spare...and that she chose not to pay for the bed and indicated that she would not be staying there at all that night. She didnt know when she might return. Thats at around 5pm.

                    So if she did have alternative plans in the form of an all night date plan, or a meeting up with someone that might include a place for her to sleep.....why isnt she at that place or with that "date" at 12:45am?

                    Thats when the fact that the Club that was known to hold some 28 or 30 men at the time she is just outside might be helpful. It would seem by her still being outdoors alone at 12:45am that she had not met the person who she planned to meet, if indeed that was why she was dressed nicely with her flower arrangement, as in for a date..... it could reasonably follow that the person she was to meet up with was in that Club she loitered near at that time.

                    The meetings often broke up later than they did on this night, which was between 11 and 11:30pm, she might be where she is to meet someone who told her to meet him at around 1am by the gates, as the length of the meeting was unclear when the date was made.

                    Hope that helps somewhat....cheers Hunter.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Some good points

                      Thanks Michael,

                      I had forgotten about the other killing that night by Brown. I guess I was trying to see if it happened enough, domestic or otherwise, to find a probability that Liz could have been killed by someone other than the one that killed Eddowes that same night.

                      You bring up an interesting point on Liz being outside the Socialist Club and possibly waiting on someone there. I think she did mention to the lady at the lodging house at one time that she was working amongst the Jews. The police interrogated everyone there that night and there's no record on anyone coming forward as to having known her. Of course, if someone did I can see why he may not with all the implication of the Jews already going around at that time.

                      Hunter
                      Best Wishes,
                      Hunter
                      ____________________________________________

                      When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                        Thanks Michael,

                        I had forgotten about the other killing that night by Brown. I guess I was trying to see if it happened enough, domestic or otherwise, to find a probability that Liz could have been killed by someone other than the one that killed Eddowes that same night.

                        You bring up an interesting point on Liz being outside the Socialist Club and possibly waiting on someone there. I think she did mention to the lady at the lodging house at one time that she was working amongst the Jews. The police interrogated everyone there that night and there's no record on anyone coming forward as to having known her. Of course, if someone did I can see why he may not with all the implication of the Jews already going around at that time.

                        Hunter
                        Hi again Hunter,

                        The real skinny on whether Liz Stride was working or socializing isnt as clear as I would like...but we can assume that she had plans that would have included a place to sleep. That may be pivotal. Because as far as I can tell I have never seen an account of a street prostitute that includes her going to the clients home and staying the night.

                        All the best Hunter

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by perrymason View Post
                          Hi again Hunter,

                          The real skinny on whether Liz Stride was working or socializing isnt as clear as I would like...but we can assume that she had plans that would have included a place to sleep. That may be pivotal. Because as far as I can tell I have never seen an account of a street prostitute that includes her going to the clients home and staying the night.

                          All the best Hunter
                          Yes, but I wonder if it was common for one of these women to prepay for her bed or just pay when they arrived at the lodging house. What I mean is why the assumption of a date or whatever when her past behaviour was to "disappear" for a while and then suddenly show back up? The rest, with the exception maybe of Kelly, had pretty much the same pattern of behaviour.

                          Best Wishes,
                          Hunter
                          Best Wishes,
                          Hunter
                          ____________________________________________

                          When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                            Yes, but I wonder if it was common for one of these women to prepay for her bed or just pay when they arrived at the lodging house. What I mean is why the assumption of a date or whatever when her past behaviour was to "disappear" for a while and then suddenly show back up? The rest, with the exception maybe of Kelly, had pretty much the same pattern of behaviour.

                            Best Wishes,
                            Hunter
                            A valid concern, but we have evidence in the form of witness testimony that suggests Liz stated she would not be returning that night....so if she was planning to return there anyway, why would she leave her velvet swatch with her lodgemate...."for safe keeping"?

                            Best regards Hunter

                            Comment

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