Escape Routes From Dutfield's Yard: Pall Mall Gazette

[Dr. John Watson]

There are a lot of curious circumstances surrounding the murder sites that may or may not be coincidence. The men of the Berner Street Club were also to be found at 22 Hanbury Street, heading up the Match Girl's Strike with Annie Besant. Of course, Annie Chapman was murdered at 29 Hanbury Street. The Jewish Baths were on Goulston Street, across the way from where the graffiti was found. There's an old flyer that shows the Berner Street men heading up a march that starts in Goulston Street at these Baths and terminates in Mitre Square.

For what it's worth, Polly Nichols was found murdered outside locked stable gates that were identical to the gates leading into Dutfield's Yard. Eddowes was likewise murdered in front of gates. All of the victims were found murdered within feet of a door of some kind.

Very interesting! Coincidence or not, the dots are legitimately connected and certainly give pause for thought.

John

[spyglass]

Hi All,
returning to the original question of this thread, isnt it proberble that the killer, when disturbed would have panicked to the exstent of running as far back into the yard untill had no where else to go. and then he would either crouch down in a dark corner and pray, or possibly climb over one of the fences and wait it out.
The idea of a calm and calculating killer waiting for the gates to open to hide behind and then slipout does'nt ring true to me.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Spy. That's extremely improbable. The Ripper positioned himself next to the exit in the Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes cases. He did this because if a problem arose, he'd be able to escape into the street. He certainly would not have ran back into the yard. The entryway into the yard was wide enough that he could bolt past anyone entering if necessary, and he would have been aware of them before they'd be aware of him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[spyglass]

TOM,
You suggest that the killer was a calm and calculating person and was prepared for a problem, Is'nt it more likely though the killer wouldnt think this all out before killing stride

I would suggest that if it all happened on the spare of the moment ( a fit of Rage ) and the possibilty of getting caught red handed as the horse and cart turned up, anyone in that situation would panic.

This would be even more relavent if the Stride murder was a domestic killing and not linked to the other murders.

[Rubyretro]

This is true, Strange, although we don't know that the Berner Street men were involved in those rallies.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

True. But my theory is not that it was one of the Berner Street Men 'wot done it' -but rather that Jack was targetting prostitutes touting for business
near jewish & political 'meetings' ...in order to stir up trouble for that section of society.

This does not mean that I don't think that he was a psychopath -or at least engaging in psychopathic behaviour at that time in his life -but rather that he gave himself a motive and believed that those women deserved to die.

[Tom_Wescott]

TOM,
You suggest that the killer was a calm and calculating person and was prepared for a problem, Is'nt it more likely though the killer wouldnt think this all out before killing stride

From what we see of the murder scenes, the murders themselves, and the absolute lack of witnesses, I'd say the killer was not someone who went out unprepared and half-cocked.

I would suggest that if it all happened on the spare of the moment ( a fit of Rage ) and the possibilty of getting caught red handed as the horse and cart turned up, anyone in that situation would panic.

Stride was killed silently, dispatched cleanly with a single swipe, and laid on the ground. There's no evidence of rage and, in fact, plenty of evidence to the contary.

This would be even more relavent if the Stride murder was a domestic killing and not linked to the other murders.

As with what I wrote above, there's no evidence of a domestic killing. Michael Kidney certainly didn't do it, and there's no evidence of a second man in Stride's life.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rubyretro]

I'm with Tom !

[Hunter]

From what we see of the murder scenes, the murders themselves, and the absolute lack of witnesses, I'd say the killer was not someone who went out unprepared and half-cocked.

He may have been calculating in obtaining his victims and was able to put these women at ease, as each one never seemed to expect what was coming, but the possibility of 2 interruptions (Nichols and Stride) and all of the locations being of a higher risk than any other serial killings that I am aware of, shows an impulsive individual when the momment to strike came... unregulated by the possible circumstances that might unfold after the initial attack. The Stride murder, if indeed committed by the same individual that killed Eddowes, can't be explained any other way... unless there was no intention to mutilate in the first place.

Stride was killed silently, dispatched cleanly with a single swipe, and laid on the ground. There's no evidence of rage and, in fact, plenty of evidence to the contary.

Yes, cold blooded killers do act that way.

As with what I wrote above, there's no evidence of a domestic killing. Michael Kidney certainly didn't do it, and there's no evidence of a second man in Stride's life.

I agree. Whoever killed her intended to do so as soon as he met her and hid that intention until the moment he struck. Nevertheless, whoever he was took substantial risks, above what any professional criminal would dare to take.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Hunter,

I think it's probable there was no intention of mutilating Stride, but even if so, your statement that "The Stride murder, if indeed committed by the same individual that killed Eddowes, can't be explained any other way", is very dogmatic and one I don't understand, because Stride was murdered and her killer got away unseen, same as the other murders. My point is that the Ripper clearly prepared himself for interruption if, as you say, he was interrupted in one or two murders and cleanly got away. Some impulsive and rage-filled would not have repeatedly escaped notice. You must also consider the possibility that the Ripper was two men.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree. Whoever killed her intended to do so as soon as he met her and hid that intention until the moment he struck. Nevertheless, whoever he was took substantial risks, above what any professional criminal would dare to take.

Dutfield's Yard was the least risky of all five canonical murder sites, with the possible exception of Buck's Row.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

That's a good point about being in a good place for flight, in regards to Dutfields Yard, Tom. 29 Hanbury St. and 13 Miller's Court could have been problematic.

This series of murders seemed to pose more risk for the killer than any others that I've studied. I don't subscribe to the 'lunatic' theory as I believe such a person would have been apprehended fairly quickly... but there seems to be something impulsive - almost mechanical - about his actions once he reached the point of committing the act.

[Tom_Wescott]

This series of murders seemed to pose more risk for the killer than any others that I've studied.

The Ripper series is a complete anomaly, which is why the possibility of two killers working together mustn't be easily disregarded.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

Dutfield's Yard was the least risky of all five canonical murder sites, with the possible exception of Buck's Row.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

And Mitre Square and possibly even 29 Hanbury Street.

Rob

[spyglass]

HIALL,

With regards to the other crime scenes, the ripper was never interupted and so never tested. ( I know he could have been at Hanbury street by the guy taking a pee on the other side of the fence, but he got away with that. )

Also with the two man theory, Im assuming that the ripper was on his own inside Dutfield yard still,and so the same scenario would still exist,although I would agree he would have been warned of someone coming.

I agree that if the Stride murder was one of five, then my earlier suggestion may not hold up so well, however if it was unrelated to the other killings then I still feel it highly proberble he would panic in such a situation.

[Rubyretro]

I think that it would have been absolutely pitch black at the time -something
that we, with our street lighting, might find hard to imagine.

I think that the killer probably had a very superior feeling over other people -after all he'd already murdered two women and got away with it. I think that
he didn't correspond at all to the popular ideas about the killer which were circulating and he felt confident that he could talk himself out of the stuation if surprised (he could pretend to have just discovered the body).

My personal belief is that he never intended to mutilate Liz because he always intended to do 2 murders that night ; he knew that there was a second club meeting over near Mitre Square where there was a quieter spot to to work is the first reason.

I'm really going to stick my neck out now and give a second possible reason :
there are two horse races run as a 'double event' at Newmarket in late September/early October (exact dates variable). They are the Cambridgeshire and the Cesarewitch, known together as the 'Autumn Double'.
Since personally, my favourite suspect is ex-groom George Hutchinson, I think that this may have been his own 'Autumn Double' and an 'in' joke.