saving Liz Stride

[Roy Corduroy]

cd, I deleted my post because Jon answered, and quite well.

There seems to be some confusion as to why the cachous present a problem, and what Liz was doing at the time she is grabbed.

Oh, no. Michael and cd, in fact, the confusion begins when the cachous are made to be a problem, rather than the common everyday item found in the hand of a murder victim.

Roy

[c.d.]

Hi Roy,

You are right that the cachous are a common every day item. But that is not the point. The question is WHEN did she take out the cachous?

Jon,

Where are you getting your information from? Schwartz said he saw the BS man throw Liz to the ground. That is it. Period. You now have the BS man with a knife in his hand (which Schwartz never stated) in the act of killing Liz per Schwartz. That is absolutely incorrect.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Oh, no. Michael and cd, in fact, the confusion begins when the cachous are made to be a problem, rather than the common everyday item found in the hand of a murder victim.

Roy

I had to punch up the above, because I cant recall ever reading about a woman found with her throat cut while holding Life Savers.

I think Roy that for you and some others this about the maintenance of a Canonical Group... not logically assessing the circumstantial and physical evidence and the statements and observations regarding that evidence in this case.

1 thing is certainly clear, Liz was facing away from her attacker and towards the gates with cachous in her hand when her scarf was grabbed. If that sounds to you like a woman that is aware she is turning her back on a dangerous man capable of murder while she's about to pop a mint into her mouth....thats your call.

I think a logical answer would be preferable.

Best regards Roy

[robhouse]

Has anyone ever considered that the killer might have put the cachous in Liz's hand after she was dead?

Rob H

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

I have no problem with the idea of Liz being on a date that night or at least anticipating a date. But why does she then end up on a street late at night by herself? Do all dates end in murder? It sounds like you are trying to make an if A then B argument. If we can show Liz was on a date, then a jealous lover killed her.

c.d.

[Suzi]

Has anyone ever considered that the killer might have put the cachous in Liz's hand after she was dead?

Rob H

Good idea there Rob- Mind you wasn't there some evidence of a cadaveric spasm in Liz's case which may explain the cachous being 'er retained in her hand following a swift carotid job! Not a grape in sight though

[c.d.]

"I think Roy that for you and some others this about the maintenance of a Canonical Group... not logically assessing the circumstantial and physical evidence and the statements and observations regarding that evidence in this case."

Oh please, Michael,

Your fervor in wanting to disprove the C5 is quite well known.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Good idea there Rob- Mind you wasn't there some evidence of a cadaveric spasm in Liz's case which may explain the cachous being 'er retained in her hand following a swift carotid job! Not a grape in sight though

But first you would have to explain how the cachous survived Liz being thrown to the ground by the BS man.

c.d.

[Suzi]

Yep sure- if you assume BS to be Liz's killer

[c.d.]

Yep sure- if you assume BS to be Liz's killer

Hi Suzi,

No problem for me. I don't think he killed Liz.

c.d.

[Suzi]

Hi Suzi,

No problem for me. I don't think he killed Liz.

c.d.

Nor me......

[Jon Guy]

C.D

Where are you getting your information from? Schwartz said he saw the BS man throw Liz to the ground. That is it. Period.

Agreed, Schwartz saw her being thrown down. He was walking away and the attack was taking place just inside the gates where it was dark.

Schwartz tells us in his statement that she was thrown down on the spot where she was later to be found dead, so this has to be the assault that kills her.

You now have the BS man with a knife in his hand (which Schwartz never stated) in the act of killing Liz per Schwartz. That is absolutely incorrect.

Someone had a knife, C.D. Just because Schwartz did not see a knife does not mean BS Man didn`t have one. He reported an assault taking place on the very spot a woman was found with a knife wound ten minutes later. Is it not most likely that Schwartz actually saw a murder?

As you say, why on earth would BS Man continue and murder Stride if he`d been seen by Schwartz? Because he had just killed her.

[c.d.]

Hi Jon,

Where to begin? Ok, let's try the cachous for starters. When do you think Liz took out the cachous?

c.d.

[Archaic]

Interesting idea on the part of Richard that Liz was possibly heading to the safety of the club by going to the side door.

Would Liz have gone to that side door because the front door was locked, or perhaps because she wanted to first head to the kitchen-area to tidy up her skirt in case it had become soiled? (We know she tidied it up before going out that night, so she may have been upset if it had gotten a bit dirty.)

Another idea is that the Ripper himself handed her the package of cachous just before killing her? Maybe they were his. Perhaps he helped Liz straighten her skirts then said something like, "Here have this before you go inside, you'll feel better" and as she automatically took the little package he grabbed her and slit her throat.

The killer's usual m.o. is believed to be that he took advantage of the moment when the women began to lift their skirts for sex
to take them by surprise; if there wasn't going to be any sex with Liz because of the previous altercation, maybe he tried another ploy?

Best regards, Archaic

PS: Sorry for the duplicate post earlier; not sure how it happened or how I can remove it.

[Jon Guy]

Hi C.D.

Where to begin? Ok, let's try the cachous for starters.

When do you think Liz took out the cachous?

It`s about 12.45, and Liz is leaning against the gate listening to the music when she looks left and see`s B.S. Man walking down the street. She instinctively reaches down into her pocket and takes out her mints.