Lipski - Anti semitic insult?

[Debra A]

This is brought over from the Stephen White thread.

Here are the news articles illustrating one case of the word 'Lipski' being used as an insult, by a Jew, against a Jew:

Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper January 29th 1888


Reynold's Newspaper 5th February 1888



And a comic version from The Sporting Times February 4th 1888

[Supe]

Debs,

Interesting finds and, if the OED is correct that it is generally many years before many words first appear in print, it may well suggest that "Lipski" had become a very popular slur very quickly indeed. Still, given the details of the court case, I have to wonder if in this instance it was it was anti-semitic so much as an ad hominem attack. That is, was Jacoby really using Lipski as an anti-jewish slur so much as he was insinuating that Solomons' designs upon his daughter were--figuratively if not absolutely literally--murderous?

Anyway, great finds.

Don.

[Sam Flynn]

Superb discoveries, Debs, and they raise a couple of interesting questions, one of which Don has already hit upon. The other, more-or-less an extension of Don's thinking, is this:- could it be that Stride's assailant was referring to himself when he shouted out "Lipski!"? More prosaically, was he ranting something along the lines of, "I'm a mad, murderous bastard, me!"?

[Debra A]

That is, was Jacoby really using Lipski as an anti-jewish slur so much as he was insinuating that Solomons' designs upon his daughter were--figuratively if not absolutely literally--murderous?

Anyway, great finds.

Don.

Hi Don, Sam

I totally agree with both of your possible interpretations in this case. The thread title was a question brought over from another thread btw, I was posting this one example just to add a little twist to the antisemitic slur argument and that BS man had to be a Gentile.

[Observer]

It also adds weight to the possibility that Jews used the insult in a similar way to African Americans, that is when they insult each using the N word.

Observer

[Observer]

It's something I sugested a long time ago here in this forum, now that my memory kicks in. I wonder if that disscusion is on record. A Jewish Stride assailant issuing a Lipsi insult to a fellow Jew that is Schwartz.

Observer

[The Good Michael]

Observer,

I also suggested this years ago and compared it to African Americans using epithets upon each other in either a good-natured or derogatory way. I believe I was told I was wrong to make such a comparison. Thanks to Deb, perhaps I wasn't necessarily in error.

Mike

[cappuccina]

I don't think you were wrong at all, Michael...

This still exists today....(except they tend to use the k-word, instead...)

[Observer]

Observer,

I also suggested this years ago and compared it to African Americans using epithets upon each other in either a good-natured or derogatory way. I believe I was told I was wrong to make such a comparison. Thanks to Deb, perhaps I wasn't necessarily in error.

Mike

Hi Mike

Indeed, if the Jews were inclined to insult each other using the Lipski oath, then Strides assailant could have been a Jew. A great find by Debra.

all the best

Observer

[c.d.]

Of course the implication could also be mind your own business or I'll come over there and Lipski your ass. An implied threat rather than a derogatory comment.

c.d.

[Observer]

Hi c.d. could well be, the main point here though is that regardless of intent the assailant could have been Jewish, a fact overlooked before on the grounds that a Jew would not insult a fellow Jew with the Lipski monicur.

Observer

[c.d.]

Hi Observer,

Unless I am missing something here, we can conclude that her assailant may or may not have been Jewish. I don't think it was ever cast in stone that a Jew would not have issued such an insult to a fellow Jew.

c.d.

[Observer]

Hi Observer,

Unless I am missing something here, we can conclude that her assailant may or may not have been Jewish. I don't think it was ever cast in stone that a Jew would not have issued such an insult to a fellow Jew.

c.d.

Hi c.d. not exactly cast in stone, but if I remember rightly the consensus was that it would have been unlikely for a Jew to issue such an oath i.e. Lipski, to a fellow Jew.

See Mikes post on page 1, he speaks of being put down for suggesting as much.

all the best

Observer

[JTRSickert]

Hello everyone. I just wanted to comment on the whole "Lipski" topic. First of all, it has been suggested that if, in fact, Stride was not a victim of JTR, then another likely suspect would be Michael Kidney, since we know the 2 had a very volatile relationship. Now, first let us take a look at the witness Israel Schwartz.

Schwartz was a Hungarian immigrant who didn't speak a word of English. He needed an interpreter to give his testimony. Now, on the night of the murder, Schwartz is walking down Berner Street. He sees a man walk over to Stride, grab her, and try to pull her into the street, but she won't go. When she refuses, he turns her round and pushes her down. Now, this sounds, at least to me, like the beginning of a domestic fight, with the man forcefully grabbing the woman and forcing her to come back home and when she refuses, the fight starts. Schwartz says the man yelled out "Lipski" either to him or Pipe man across the street, but is this what was really said? Since Schwartz didn't speak English, perhaps he got it confused. What if the name that was yelled was, in fact, "Kidney!" Remember, although they are not identical, "Lipski" and "Kidney" do sound phonetically similar. And if "Kidney" was yelled, perhaps it wasn't the man. What if it was Stride, calling out her attacker? Or, if it was the man, perhaps he was a ruffian or some commoner that was being paid or asked by Kidney (who was standing across the street) who, in this scenario, is Pipe Man. The ruffian yells out to Kidney across the street, for whatever reason. And Kidney follows Schwartz just to sort of, see him off...let him know it's not his concern.

The reason Schwartz may have assumed it was "Lipski" is because there were a number of Jews named Lipski and of course, it was common enough to be heard around the East End. Although this is merely speculation, I thought I'd share it with you. None of this is, of course, conclusive.

[tnb]

As I mentioned on the Stephen White thread, we have to bear in mind the divisions between Jews in the East End at the time.

The IWMEC itself was apparently a bone of contention (I don't have the reference but Chris Scott mentioned in on a podcast a while back); Fiona Rule also points out in 'the worst street in London' that sections of the more established Jewish families in the area were at this time quite openly unimpressed by the newer wave of Jewish immigrants - having spent generations integrating and building up a certain lifestyle, perhaps they felt embarassed and even threatened by their more openly 'foreign', rough-and-ready compatriots (if a country-less race can be said to have compatriots).

It is of course possible that the utterance of 'Lipski' in this instance was a straightforward anti-semitic insult from non-Jew to Jew, indeed this remains the most likely scenario, but I summise that it can't be ignored that it may have been a sign of anti-Jewish conflict, perhaps shouted from established 'higher class' Jew to a lower class, more recent arrival? An overtly 'foreign Jew' perhaps...(opens can of worms and stands well back).